Congrats on Latest Patch, Questions on Weapon Use and Map

Gugi

Member
Dear All,

First of all, I have noticed that after the latest patch 0.6.2 the combat has been much much much better. I found it to be much more fluid and the speed improvements on Two and One handed swords are amazing. In fact after spending hours in the Arena I finally managed to get the courage up to play the Exanima Dungeon and finished it relatively easily (no knockouts). I guess practice does make perfect, I would usually die to the first zombie before this patch.

So huge congrats to the devs, waiting for the release of Sui Generis will be even more painful for me from this point on, but I will be perfectly fine if it is released before I die ;).

A Couple Questions:

1) Weapon Use

There is still something I do not understand though, and that is weapon control. People claim that one can do much more than right swing, left swing, overhead and thrust. I can see how this happens and it has to do with the position/twist of your body and/or crouching but these are terribly hard to execute as planned moves.

I usually suffer from this problem when dealing with one-handers with small-shields (bucklers), aiming for the legs, neck or an exposed torso seems to be at random for me. I tell my character to do a right to left swing and sometimes it satisfactorily lands on that un-coiffed neck with devastating effects, but most often it is guarded. I even find executing a left to right swing kind of hard to do.

I completely understand that emulating an action that has multiple pivot points, which also works in 3D with a 2D mouse + a 2D+crouch Keyboard is extremely hard and even this much of free-action-combat that is accomplished is quite satisfactory. But, you know, it takes away from the satisfaction of beating an opponent when I realize that 90% of the time I had that lucky strike that I did not really plan out.

Are improvements/enhancements on this planned? Or as someone has suggested before can we get a trainer NPC at some point that teaches us certain moves?

2) Maps

Is implementing a map/maps planned for Exanima/SG? I spent a great deal of time getting lost in Exanima running around the same areas, I am not direction savvy at all. I am aware some people will strongly disagree about this, I understand that it makes it more real not to have a map, I understand that it adds to the tension and yes if I woke up in a dungeon I would probably get lost the same way, but games are primarily for fun, and circulating the same empty rooms for hours is not fun.

Besides, If I really woke up in a creepy dungeon full of zombies/skeletons and some other beasts there is a 10% chance I would try to survive layering-up zombie/skeleton clothing, but most probably I would just burn myself with the torch.
 

Qazlal

Member
Besides, If I really woke up in a creepy dungeon full of zombies/skeletons and some other beasts there is a 10% chance I would try to survive layering-up zombie/skeleton clothing, but most probably I would just burn myself with the torch.
I guess, the game should have the option of suicide.
 
As for your first point, just lots of practice and so on and you will eventually get to the point where you can do all the moves as we know done.

As for maps. Make your own. Or browse the forums.
 

Gugi

Member
As for your first point, just lots of practice and so on and you will eventually get to the point where you can do all the moves as we know done.
I do not think so, a L-R swing is a L-R swing in the theta-plane, the game does not let you control the phi-angle your weapon strikes at. Maybe it does, but then one might need certain instructions about how to do so. Very interesting stuff happens through fights but I am not convinced that most happens the way the player intends to happen.

My question was simply "Will more detailed control of your weapon be implemented, or refined?", or if it exists, "Will it be demonstrated and explained?"

As for maps. Make your own. Or browse the forums.
Making my own map, or looking for a third party map (or add-on in the distant future) is a solution, yet I am wondering if the devs are planning to implement one or not.

I understand the mentality your responses stem from, however I do not find this type of attitude proper for the forums of this project. Maybe in Blizzard/Bethesda forums.

The Exanima/SG dev team have undertaken a very tough, and ambitious task, and they are progressing with solid improvements which is very impressive, and I am quite convinced that Madoc is an exceptionally clever person considering how the engine runs the game so smoothly, but most importantly how he manages to tackle the underlying "mechanics" of the combat. It is a very hard problem.

So, when I am posing a question, it points to an actual issue, and naturally I am expecting a real answer with tangible proof. "It works with physics", or "practice more" is not an answer. Neither physics, not its software implementations works like that, as I said, here one maps a highly complicated system to a 2 2D equipment, and what you can do will be quite limited and the limitations will be alleviated by certain algorithms which will cause certain moves to happen "by luck".

So if you have something real to point out about these, please do.
 
Re-reading I see your first point. I don't think anyone really knows for new attacks to be certain. We know better thrusting and thatamurgy is coming, but that's about it. I don't really browse youtube for Exanima tutorials, but they exist for combat. The combat and animations will be continually improved, but as of right now, it's kinda been "Find out what works for you".
We definitely want skill, item qualities (i.e. how well balanced a weapon is) and other factors to interact with animations via the physics. This doesn't just concern weapons but also shields and armours. The armour skill is largely there to counter the detrimental effects of wearing a lot of heavy gear.

We have considered more complex control systems many times but the combat is already fun and very skillful as it is. Our intention is to keep the controls simple so that you can focus on how you move and swing rather than what key you press. Many people don't like fiddly control systems, myself included. That said we do plan to have more attacks and special moves. For example we want thrust or other targeted attacks to be performed by clicking and then holding the mouse button down while aiming with the cursor.

Combat and character movement in general still have a long way to go, what we've done so far is build the foundations for the animation system and character physics.
As for maps, SG might be getting them, Exanima, maybe not so much. The community has already made great maps.

There is the "Grand list of Dev quotes in the General discussion if you want some more knowledge about that.
 

Tyon

Member
I wouldn't mind there being maps in the game as long as you don't start off with one and it's very well hidden. Perhaps every "level" could have it's very own map which you have to find. It would be a very simple map, no indicator of where you're at, you would have to look at your surroundings.
 

Gugi

Member
Re-reading I see your first point. I don't think anyone really knows for new attacks to be certain. We know better thrusting and thatamurgy is coming, but that's about it. I don't really browse youtube for Exanima tutorials, but they exist for combat. The combat and animations will be continually improved, but as of right now, it's kinda been "Find out what works for you".


As for maps, SG might be getting them, Exanima, maybe not so much. The community has already made great maps.

There is the "Grand list of Dev quotes in the General discussion if you want some more knowledge about that.
Thank you so much, information like this was what I was looking for.

No maps, like this is okay.
I will state it again, you can be a tough guy and play it without a map all you like. However, I would appreciate if a map existed for both Exanima and Sui Generis, in the very least under a menu option like:

Settings->Realism->Maps Enabled/Disabled.

Honestly I am way more curious about how Sui Generis will turn out to be, about all the role playing, decision making promises, and of course an improved version of the Exanima combat. Unfortunately I learned about this project way too late and SG forums seems to be backers only.

All in all I would rather have a game give me hard time about my decisions/actions rather than making me run for 30 minutes in an already cleared dungeon to find that one door that I have missed.

I do not understand why gaming forums turned out to be a battlefield dominated by two kinds of people:

i) Making outrageous requests and hating everything type
ii) Claiming every single thing done is absolute perfection and everything should stay as it is type

Rather than a community of people trying to be "constructively" criticizing and discussing in a real, tangible manner such that the product will flourish to be something everyone will appreciate and get a "real" 9.7/10 rating.

I wouldn't mind there being maps in the game as long as you don't start off with one and it's very well hidden. Perhaps every "level" could have it's very own map which you have to find. It would be a very simple map, no indicator of where you're at, you would have to look at your surroundings.
This is a very good idea, however hiding the map kind of defeats the purpose. Until one finds the map one can very well get acquainted with the dungeon to navigate it without it (at least for some people, I am retarded when it comes to navigation).

Maybe, alternatively, in the larger SG world, maps to cities and areas could be sold, some dungeons could have complete/semi-complete maps drawn by adventurers/thieves that visited them before. These could also be sold or found. Some small dungeons could be uncharted.
 

SyllaBear

Member
I will state it again, you can be a tough guy and play it without a map all you like. However, I would appreciate if a map existed for both Exanima and Sui Generis, in the very least under a menu option like:

Settings->Realism->Maps Enabled/Disabled.

Honestly I am way more curious about how Sui Generis will turn out to be, about all the role playing, decision making promises, and of course an improved version of the Exanima combat. Unfortunately I learned about this project way too late and SG forums seems to be backers only.

All in all I would rather have a game give me hard time about my decisions/actions rather than making me run for 30 minutes in an already cleared dungeon to find that one door that I have missed.

I do not understand why gaming forums turned out to be a battlefield dominated by two kinds of people:

i) Making outrageous requests and hating everything type
ii) Claiming every single thing done is absolute perfection and everything should stay as it is type

Rather than a community of people trying to be "constructively" criticizing and discussing in a real, tangible manner such that the product will flourish to be something everyone will appreciate and get a "real" 9.7/10 rating.
Or enjoy the game how it was suposed to be played and learn to remember places. Once you do you wont need a map. You even have plenty of items to mark where you been. Why cant you just use logic and thinking instead of requesting thing to be easier?
If you want a map you can draw it yourself. I honestly enjoyed not having a map and the labyrinth stuff.

Not sure why do you get so upset about reading a diferent opinion. Not everyone wants to play child games with everything served.
 

Gugi

Member
Or enjoy the game how it was supposed to be played and learn to remember places. Once you do you wont need a map. You even have plenty of items to mark where you been. Why cant you just use logic and thinking instead of requesting thing to be easier?
If you want a map you can draw it yourself. I honestly enjoyed not having a map and the labyrinth stuff.

Not sure why do you get so upset about reading a different opinion. Not everyone wants to play child games with everything served.
I am not upset about reading different opinions, you are not presenting an opinion. Your opinion is as follows:

"I believe there should not be an auto-map implemented, I believe that not having a map adds to the authenticity of the environment and the setting and gives a genuine feeling of loss and hopelessness which I enjoyed. Therefore I believe this game should not have a map enabled by default."

But you said:

No maps, like this is okay.
This is not an opinion.

I do not want to "play child games with everything served". The developers are not obliged to follow neither my opinions nor yours, thus I am not making a "demand", but rather presenting an option. Which might make the game simply more accessible and satisfactory for a broader audience, an "option" by definition does not preferentially neglect one choice or the other.

Anyway, about your actual opinion which I quoted here. I agree with that, I have felt that too (as I stated it in my first post) being lost in the dungeon not knowing where I am made it scarier, and wanted me to get out of there ASAP. I am not against this at all, so if the devs did include maps by default I would object to that too, I would open a new thread suggesting that maybe having a map or not should be optional.

Do you see my point now?
 

SyllaBear

Member
I am not upset about reading different opinions, you are not presenting an opinion. Your opinion is as follows:

"I believe there should not be an auto-map implemented, I believe that not having a map adds to the authenticity of the environment and the setting and gives a genuine feeling of loss and hopelessness which I enjoyed. Therefore I believe this game should not have a map enabled by default."

But you said:



This is not an opinion.

I do not want to "play child games with everything served". The developers are not obliged to follow neither my opinions nor yours, thus I am not making a "demand", but rather presenting an option. Which might make the game simply more accessible and satisfactory for a broader audience, an "option" by definition does not preferentially neglect one choice or the other.

Anyway, about your actual opinion which I quoted here. I agree with that, I have felt that too (as I stated it in my first post) being lost in the dungeon not knowing where I am made it scarier, and wanted me to get out of there ASAP. I am not against this at all, so if the devs did include maps by default I would object to that too, I would open a new thread suggesting that maybe having a map or not should be optional.

Do you see my point now?
I am not upset about reading different opinions, you are not presenting an opinion. Your opinion is as follows:

"I believe there should not be an auto-map implemented, I believe that not having a map adds to the authenticity of the environment and the setting and gives a genuine feeling of loss and hopelessness which I enjoyed. Therefore I believe this game should not have a map enabled by default."

But you said:



This is not an opinion.

I do not want to "play child games with everything served". The developers are not obliged to follow neither my opinions nor yours, thus I am not making a "demand", but rather presenting an option. Which might make the game simply more accessible and satisfactory for a broader audience, an "option" by definition does not preferentially neglect one choice or the other.

Anyway, about your actual opinion which I quoted here. I agree with that, I have felt that too (as I stated it in my first post) being lost in the dungeon not knowing where I am made it scarier, and wanted me to get out of there ASAP. I am not against this at all, so if the devs did include maps by default I would object to that too, I would open a new thread suggesting that maybe having a map or not should be optional.

Do you see my point now?
But you cant simply add an option for everything... so another guy comes with another idea, what then? more options? Nope.

Here, look at this

"unforgiving". That should be enough.
Adding a map would make this game to lose the immersion. So please don't.

And like i said, you have enough items around the map to split them along side to side to dont get lost. What ive been doing since i started to get good (not from the start, but i kinda knew i had to do something to not lose my way). So with all of that, adding a map is a really, really bad idea.

I think that i just wrote answers this "but games are primarily for fun, and circulating the same empty rooms for hours is not fun."
The fun is to explore without map. I, and i think a lot of people who enjoyed playing exanima will agree with that.
You dont circulate the same places if you leave marks around.
BAM! problem solved.

ps: i forgot... people make maps. So if you want a map wait until someone else make it and enjoy your 10' gameplay per lvl, i will enjoy my half hour of immersion.
 
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Tyon

Member
A map fits within the context of the game, in level 1 and 3 there are lots of large pieces of wood and carts, this gives the impression that something was being built. Wouldn't any builder or architect want a map of the place, especially an underground dungeon, in order to better understand the place?
 

SyllaBear

Member
A map fits within the context of the game, in level 1 and 3 there are lots of large pieces of wood and carts, this gives the impression that something was being built. Wouldn't any builder or architect want a map of the place, especially an underground dungeon, in order to better understand the place?
But of course we need a map!! Who would want to get lost in the 1st lvl maze? *wink wink nudge nudge*
 

-Tim-

Insider
On the topic of maps, I think it's useful to distinguish between a map as a part of the UI or game menu, which we could call a 'minimap', and maps as actual objects that are part of the game world, which are made by the inhabitants of the game world.
An example of the latter can already be found in level 3.
I personally don’t think having a minimap would fit with the game’s design philosophy and its minimalistic UI. There’s been quite a bit of discussion on this and it has neither been conclusively decided nor decided conclusively.

The latest comment by Madoc on this was as follows:

Madoc said:
I think the map issue will always be somewhat subjective. Some people will want to wander around perhaps lost and enjoy trying to figure out where they are, some will want to be sure they've been everywhere before moving on and so and so forth.

We're still today not entirely sure what approach we want to take with maps. What we want to avoid is something that has you consulting a map rather than looking at your surroundings in game. This is actually not easy to achieve. In the context of Exanima, the only thing that would seem to work is finding a predrawn map so that there is no way for you to know where you are on it. A map that is drawn automatically would still show your progress and effectively where you are and where you haven't been. Rather than look at your surroundings and pay attention to them you're more likely to go by trial and error, running around somewhat aimlessly and looking at the map to see if the desired result was achieved.

This detracts from the game in more way than one, you don't look at your surroundings and take them in and you're constantly fiddling with the UI to monitor changes made without your knowledge and confirm your actions. Our aim is always to create a certain experience rather than a game of completing and scoring.

Still in the context of Exanima I'm personally of the opinion that a map is not necessary and potentially detrimental. We're aiming for something that is replayable with a relatively small amount of content (more features such as randomisation of items and character builds will reinforce this), where you have a go and aim to do better next time. You should in time become familiar with the environments and we are trying to make them look more and more distinct. This is quite different from an old school dungeon crawler where every room and corridor essentially looks the same.
 

Elaxter

Insider
What's wrong with a map anyway? Just give the player a real map. No magical markers, no player location, no bread crumbs, just a map with places on it. Let the player use his real-world map reading skills to navigate. Overlord didn't have a map. Instead, it came with a physical map in the gamebox.
 

Fawz

Insider
I'll settle for being able to draw my own map in the game or finding maps in-game made by NPCs that use their own scale measurement and drawing style and then it's up to the player to situate themselves.
 

SyllaBear

Member
On the topic of maps, I think it's useful to distinguish between a map as a part of the UI or game menu, which we could call a 'minimap', and maps as actual objects that are part of the game world, which are made by the inhabitants of the game world.
An example of the latter can already be found in level 3.
I personally don’t think having a minimap would fit with the game’s design philosophy and its minimalistic UI. There’s been quite a bit of discussion on this and it has neither been conclusively decided nor decided conclusively.

The latest comment by Madoc on this was as follows:
Devs know ;D
 
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