I would like to talk about weapon clashing for a moment.

[NT122]

Not many games have it. I wish the Elder Scrolls games did. It adds a little extra flare, in my opinion.

The few things we know about the combat of Sui Generis imply that every attack will count. I think weapon clashing adds three things to combat.

1) Viability for one handed builds
2) An extra way for squishier builds to survive
3) The ever important coolness factor.

Here is my question, how would one balance it so it doesn't become a click fest? Furthermore, the problem of different weapon types colliding. Discuss if you'd like!

 

[Heitor Souza]

Interesting topic. One game that I think that kinda nailed the Sword 1-on-1 combat is Jedi Academy. Say what you want about the story, but the lightsaber combat system is amazing. Sure, you can breeze through by just spamming the attack button, but try on the hardest difficulty and you'll have to learn how to parry attacks and when to strike. Now, to apply that on a top-head view game...

edit: forgot to add the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6ukSj1pqcc

 

[Kaizer0002]

I like the idea because it allows characters to be frail yet still defensible. Using Jedi Academy again, you rarely hit your opponent and when you do, they generally die (or at least they should). There was an MMA game that came out with the same concept where a well placed attack would dispatch your opponent quickly. By allowing dodges/blocks/parries, the moments when you are actually hit matter (as opposed to some boxing games where you can take a hundred blows to the chin). A few other games are designed around this mindset, many of which (like Dark Souls) have been mentioned before.

 

[Infidel]

how would one balance it so it doesn't become a click fest? Furthermore, the problem of different weapon types colliding.

Weapons already clash according to physics, that's how parrying works. The behaviour of collisions between different weapon types is governed by physics too, with weight and momentum influencing the outcome.

 

[Fawz]

Weapon clashing is indeed a feature of combat that is both cool and useful. I think that's where your screenshot is from, but I remember Dark Messiah having down that aspect of sword combat especially well.

As was mentioned, the combat is physics based so clashing already happens. From what I've noticed from the footage though weapons only clang off each other and no force is applied to push back. Having it be dynamic and not be a sort of mini quick time event is key to doing it right.

 

[Infidel]

Perhaps a well timed click, right at the instant of parrying, could perform a push with your weapon?

A poorly timed click on the other hand would make you vulnerable to the attack you attempted to push.

 

[Mimel]

As was mentioned, the combat is physics based so clashing already happens. From what I've noticed from the footage though weapons only clang off each other and no force is applied to push back. Having it be dynamic and not be a sort of mini quick time event is key to doing it right.

In my opinion, the BM videos of combat do show the impact of weapons well. Many people in the forums have mentioned the characters look drunk and wobbling a lot. I think it shows that the characters are dealing with the physics of the impacts of hits. They seem to be counter-balancing the "push effect". So, I believe this is already in play.

I seem to recall though that the DEVs mentioned as your skill improves so do your combat maneuvers. I took this to mean the characters would have better balance and therefore the impact of hits would be countered better. This would lead to more agile maneuvers.

That being said, weapons clashing seems to already be present. Now disarming weapons....that would be a nice addition, but it would probably just be a part of the physics dynamics.

 

[The Urban Spaceman]

My understanding is that the weapons in footage released so far have no weight but it will be added later. So yes weapons do already clash but nothing like they will in the finished product. Also the combat animations were done by Madoc who is not an animator. They will improve dramatically over time.

 

[Zodeak]

Yep, the Jedi Knight series has flawless lightsaber combat all in all imo. Jedi Outcast 2 is astonishing...

As has already been mentioned, it seems as though clashing will be implemented properly later on in development. The fact is, most warriors of the world wielded one handed weapons or spears as primary weapons because it allows far greater control, and still provides a viable defense. That said, it could be because shields are fairly wasteful in terms of resources. I.e. wood which could be made into arrows instead; metal into swords etc. Possibly too expensive? Not sure personally...

 

[nox]

Oh wow, those Jedi academy vids gave me a awesome nostalgia trip
About clashing, I think there will be a nice system for that using the physics

 

[acrimoneyius]

This could be an interesting dynamic in the way that knife fighting in FPS games (Counter-Strike/COD) is a nice break away from standard engagements and requires a different approach, particularly due to the exponential increase in how rapidly rotational mechanics can affect aim.

 

[Rob]

My understanding is that the weapons in footage released so far have no weight but it will be added later. So yes weapons do already clash but nothing like they will in the finished product. Also the combat animations were done by Madoc who is not an animator. They will improve dramatically over time.

Going from Kieran's Update #6, I believe that weapons do indeed already have weight and do clash. This is not a problem from the point of view of implementation. As you say, Spaceman, the issue is that animations haven't been finalised. Similarly, weapon weights haven't been finalised either. I can speculatively imagine that user testing will be important for helping to determine sensible weighting schemes.

 

[nox]

I can speculatively imagine that user testing will be important for helping to determine sensible weighting schemes.

Haha I get excited just by hearing the words "user testing". XD

 

[BigT2themax]

That being said, weapons clashing seems to already be present. Now disarming weapons....that would be a nice addition, but it would probably just be a part of the physics dynamics.

I like the sound of that. Perhaps if the force of a hit (the necessary force being higher depending on the character's strength) is high enough, their weapon would be hit away? Of course, it'd have to be when your character is very tired or if they're surprised by the attack (and as such, don't have enough time to brace their grip for the strike) and it'd have to be a VERY strong hit, otherwise the player would just find it frustating.

 

[Infidel]

My first thought was that disarming opponents would be fun, my second was that getting disarmed by an opponent would be annoying, particularly if it happened too easily, often or multiple times in the same fight.

But it could be really cool if it could only happen within strict conditions such as:

1. In response to a very hard strike when your character is very tired.
2. In response to a special strike that is visually identifiable and could be countered so as not to be disarmed.

 

[BrecMadak]

strangely no one ever mentioned M&B chambering:

Chambering endlessly would serve no purpose in addition to being a silly implementation no matter what, since your hands will not resist long enough and hurt by momentum at the end.

Timing definitly plays the biggest role in here, and if ever implemented in SG so it should also apply in this manner as well, and not a clickfest.

 

[JamesButlin]

Anything that requires constant clicking/pressing of a button to win = A huge annoyance to me. I hope i'm not alone in this, clashing of course being a neccesity for the combat in SG (glad to hear the devs have already implemented it) but I hope they veer away from anything that turns it into a hammer-button-repeatedly-to-win fest.

 

[Bibidibop]

The link below is relevant, it describes how defense will work. It's a combination of automatic when not attacking, but effected by your stance angle relative the enemy attack; no parrying behind your back. It also mentions double click special moves, and learned special attacks, which I'm guessing automatically get incorporated into your fighting repertoire.

Another important aspect is the statement that there will be pin-point accuracy weapons; although, only spears are mentioned, I hope it is true of any non-chain weapon. Even chain weapons should get pretty close to where you point, as affected by momentum and angle.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1473965863/sui-generis/posts/351154