3 little suggestions that'd improve the game quite a bit

[Nahkuri]

Right. Hello.

First off, I don't own the game. However, I played it yesterday for hours and hours on my friend's computer. Beat the novice arena 2 times as a new character and maybe got 2/3 of the expert arena. Had a short go at the dungeons, 2spooky4me. As a fan of games like Mount & Blade and Dark Souls I quite fell in love with this. Well, it's more of a "it's complicated" thing since this game has a looong way to go. Will probably buy at some point.

Second, I haven't read these forums. Only thing I've read is the thread on the Mount & Blade forums. I wouldn't consider it a miraculous coincidence if someone talked about this earlier too. If this grinds your gears, please accept my mostly sincere apologies. I'm just dropping by to say my piece. If the devs have previously explained why one or more of these couldn't be done, I'd love to be pointed in the right direction to read it.

Now then.

1. Optional locked camera / "3rd person mode"

This already exists in the game pretty much how I like it. No, not talking about the followcam 0/1 in the exanima.ini or whatever. Just hold down spacebar in combat and boom, no more constantly getting disoriented in combat as a new player.

Maybe add a button prompt to lock/unlock the camera, so you don't have to hold down a button. Also, it'd be fine if the cursor would be allowed to move forward and back while in this mode, only being locked from left/right movement.

2. Improved combat controls.

Aside from getting used to the camera, the controls in combat are mostly fine. It's basically Mount & Blade with autoblock and a bottle of vodka, really. The only thing that bothers me really is the Left To Right swing. You really, really need to move that mouse to the left of your character to do it. An experienced player can do it quick enough, sure, but new players probably will just expose their side to the opponent before stumbling around like an idiot.

This is undesirable. A simple LTR attack shouldn't cause any trouble at all to perform, not even to a new player.

What I suggest is that the attack direction is based on your opponent and your cursor. Cursor to the right of the opponent? RTL. Cursor to the left of your opponent? LTR. This was the first attack controls developed for Mount & Blade back in 2005, and it worked fabulously.

Thinking about it further, the M&B thing would probably work worse in this game as it's not 3rd person.

What I suggest instead is either

a) The attack divider for LTR|RTL is in front of you, rather than 60 degrees to your left. In that system both attacks require equal amount of mouse positioning, which is tiny by comparison what you need to do now for a LTR.

b) Freely mappable button for LTR. Double clicking said button would do a thrust attack.

3. Let me zoom in a bit more

Please. Pretty please. Pretty pretty please with whipped cream and a cherry on top. The graphics are purdy enough to handle it. I want to look at objects more closely when faffing about the dungeons. I want a closer look of my enemy and the weapon he's using. Could I zoom in just a liiiittle bit more? Just a tad?


That's it. Thank you for your time. Comment, discuss, mudwrestle, whatever.

 

[nrage]

#1 search the forums, this is a dead horse.

 

[ridikyuhlus]

I agree with points 1 and 3. LtR swings I feel are tricky still but not sure how that would work with multiple opponents.

 

[Nahkuri]

I agree with points 1 and 3. LtR swings I feel are tricky still but not sure how that would work with multiple opponents.

The enemy to which you're the closest, or the one your character is facing. One of those is the Mount & Blade approach(IIRC the first,) and it works quite well in battles with dozens upon dozens of combatants.

 

[Murf]

The enemy to which you're the closest, or the one your character is facing. One of those is the Mount & Blade approach(IIRC the first,) and it works quite well in battles with dozens upon dozens of combatants.

For me personally, I do not want the game to dictate who I should fight in a 3vME. I can see the entire situation, I know what my skills are, I can see exploits. I should be able to choose who I am going to attack. I should not be forced to attack the closest or the one I am facing.

 

[Nahkuri]

It forces nothing. Feel free to attack the person you like. For that you need to move closer to that enemy anyhow. The way it works in M&B: Look at the closest enemy. Look to his right, you do a RTL swing. Look to his left, you do a LTR swing. You're not locked in engagement with him, at all, it's all based on where you're looking. If he's busy fighting someone else, you can just walk past him and attack that other bugger pelting rocks at you 5m past him.

Another option of course would be to keep the current controls, but make the LTR swing a whole lot more sensitive. Now it seems you need to move your cursor to about 10 o'clock for that attack to initiate. I don't understand why this should be the case at all. A pixel to the left of your character should be enough.

 

[Bobob]

You don't necessarily have to walk forward to attack an enemy. You can easily demonstrate a situation in which one enemy is closer to you but you still attack an enemy farther away.
I play M&B and attack directions there now are relative to your character like in this game.
This is because the combat method you describe does limit you. Sometimes to perform certain maneuvers you don't want attack direction decided for you.
Finally, it is not that hard to do a LTR swing if you play a bit. I think it is not a big enough deal to demand a big change.

 

[Nahkuri]

The old option in M&B is still available for those who got accustomed to it, like myself. Though the newer options have some advantages to it in the context of M&B, where you can hold your attacks, the old option isn't that limiting, really. I never felt limited by it anyhow, though granted I'd been using it since it was introduced in 2005 so I'm rather comfortable with it.

You don't necessarily have to walk forward to attack an enemy. You can easily demonstrate a situation in which one enemy is closer to you but you still attack an enemy farther away.

Gimme a for instance. Wanting to whack the dude behind your opponent with a polearm? I usually feel like attacking the dude closest to me, as he's the most dangerous.

Finally, it is not that hard to do a LTR swing if you play a bit. I think it is not a big enough deal to demand a big change.

Couldn't disagree with you more. It is a big deal. It's a huge deal. I've played the arena for... I don't know, 4-6 hours and I am not confident in my ability to do the LTR swing at all when I'm fighting. Certainly not with good aim and timing. And this is not some fighting game's megacombo that's intentionally super hard to pull off. It's a basic attack, players should be able to confidently do it within 5 minutes of getting the weapon.

When the game has very challenging combat that relies on perfecting your timing, footwork and all that good stuff, it is crucial that the controls are as smooth and intuitive as possible. Especially when dying throws you at the beginning. I'm not saying my suggestion is the perfect choice for this game, I just threw it as an example because I like that type of control. Main point is that the LTR isn't easy enough to do.

 

[TwoPumpWarrior]

If you are finding the current system to be inconsistent, then you are doing something wrong. I can perform a LtR at any time right now. A good tip: Imagine a pile of snowballs to your left. You want to quickly click and fling the snowballs at your opponent without turning your whole body.

Some scheme that makes my attacks relative to the opponent sounds ridiculous, I can't predict all their movements and this will likely result in my death numerous times. The controls are extremely consistent as they stand, but physics certainly complicates things to a degree.

Without proper consideration your movement will throw your attacks out of whack. At least with this setup I know it was my fault for an ineffective or failed advance. Having the system reliant on an outside party (the enemy) will only complicate things. Imagine a 2vME, if I want to attack the right opponent with a LtR what's to say I'll not just attack the left opponent with a RtL? With the current scheme, it's in my control. For the other scheme, it is not and that's unacceptable.

 

[Nahkuri]

Inconsistency isn't the problem, the clunkiness is. The problem is that the LTR swing spot is too far to your left. I often fail at it because I flick my mouse around quickly in an attempt to not expose my bloody right side to my opponent. Which happens if I take my time to do the swing, thanks to your dude turning to face the cursor unless you flick your mouse quick enough.

It's a system you can master and do LTR swings effortlessly, sure. It's still clunky. You can run smoothly in QWOP if you put enough hours in it, but that doesn't make it a very good control scheme.

However, now that I think about it, I suppose my initial M&B control scheme wouldn't be ideal in SG as it's not 3rd person. It would work well enough in 1v1, especially when holding down space bar for a pseudo 3rd person view, but in isometric group fights I can see it potentionally making things unnecessarily complicated.

 

[TwoPumpWarrior]

I fail to see how a system can be both effortless and clunky. It appears clunky at first, I'll concede to that but just as you say, with time it is quite simple and fluid. If you are moving your mouse too wildly, it may cause issues which I have been victim too. I find that deliberate and slow arcing motions suit my play style the best and generally make combat look visually appealing. This is only possible through concentration and playing re-actively/harmoniously with the physics.

 

[Nahkuri]

I wasn't saying that anyhow. What I was saying was that with enough practice you can overcome the clunkiness and do the attack effortlessly. This doesn't argue that the controls are fine. As a long time fan of skill and timing based melee games such as Blade of Darkness, Mount & Blade and From Software's Souls games, I maintain that the challenge shouldn't come from getting over the controls. It should come from your opponents bashing your head in because you timed and spaced your attacks poorly. This is the main draw of Exanima and SG for me, and the reason why I seriously hope they do something to make the basic attack controls more intuitive.

It would actually be much, much better now if the swing direction "sweet spot" would be directly in front of you, instead of 10 o'clock.

 

[TwoPumpWarrior]

Why argue for a skill based system when that is exactly what we have? You're saying that with enough practice you can become a skilled player, that's generally the process for most skill games. And I don't think you can fairly judge the controls unless you can perform well with them. In other words, you don't start Demon Souls knowing how to tackle the Flamelurker but you figure it out. Fromsoft's controls have been easy to grasp and just a bit harder to master. This game relies on that same process and I would be upset to see it go. Just because the controls are much harder to perform in exanima should in no way detract from their merit (which they don't IMO).

You seem to simply want an alternative control method; well starting thinking of something that can perform as well and does not sacrifice your options in combat. I can't. This system has already surpassed my expectations and continues to do so, I would go so far as to say we've barely seen what's really possible.

 

[Nahkuri]

Yes we have, with controls that bring unnecessary learning curve to an aspect of the combat.

Listen, it's quite simple. I like the combat now, I don't want massive changes in it. It's the attack controls I have a problem with, mainly the LTR swing. Doing it is awkward as a new player, for reasons I like to think I've explained well and simply enough, short of drawing stick figures in the sand.

Why don't I like the controls? Grab a stick in your right hand. Bring it over your left shoulder and swing it right as if you were swinging a sword. Simple, right? It should be that easy and natural in the game, or as close as possible. It isn't now. I've played hours at a time of the game at my friend's place, and I still don't feel like I got it. This will turn new players with shorter attention spans than you & I away from the game, and they'll tell others why. Somehow I don't get the feeling that isn't something the developers of any game want to see.

EDIT:

You seem to simply want an alternative control method; well starting thinking of something that can perform as well and does not sacrifice your options in combat. I can't

It would actually be much, much better now if the swing direction "sweet spot" would be directly in front of you, instead of 10 o'clock.

 

[TwoPumpWarrior]

Do you want me to make a video where I perform 100 LtR swings in a row?
I don't want to sound condescending but there is nothing unreliable about the current LtR input method. I completely agree that it is vague and hard to describe the process. I don't have a problem adding a modifier key to perform LtR. But I love how all attacks can be performed with 1 key right now. This method, in my opinion, offers an instant and painless way to perform an attack without the need to take my fingers off WASD.

 

[Nahkuri]

I'd be more interested how long it took you to grasp doing it reliably and exactly when you want it, in the middle of fighting a challenging opponent.

The user Jest brought up the same issue as I have, in his thread.

That looks about right. Now, what argument is there *for* having the LTR swing "cursor zone" be like that?

 

[TwoPumpWarrior]

Weeks. I was horrible at this game, much like everyone else the first time they play.
But I have two arena completion videos on youtube so I think I can say I'm fairly decent at the game.
So I understand the 'obvious' zone breakdown would be along the center. Seeing how your character faces the cursor always in combat (give or take the time it takes to physically turn), if it were divided 50/50 then you'd be just as likely to do a RtL as a LtR without even moving your cursor. Now that would be inconsistent. If the division is more discrete as it is now, being that you have to put effort into performing a LtR swing (not saying it's hard to do so, just you have to clearly distinguish the motion for LtR), you have a much clearer understanding of how to perform the swing.

 

[Nahkuri]

And that's my problem with it. Aside from the severely handicapped maybe, in a game with good controls it shouldn't take anyone weeks to master the ancient and mystic art of... swinging your weapon from left to right instead of right to left.

Anyway, the 50/50 thing isn't a bad point, and is possibly the reason why the controls are as they are now. I'm not convinced it'd be worse than this system, however. 50/50 chance of RTL or LTR when you're not moving your cursor doesn't seem like that big a deal in a fighting game where you are constantly moving the thing to adjust your positioning anyhow. To me a system where executing both attacks require you to flick your mouse a tiny bit seems better than a system where doing the other one requires a significant movement of the mouse cursor if you want to pull it off, and a quick one at that. Unless you really want to flaunt your side to your opponent.

 

[TwoPumpWarrior]

I had fun flailing like an idiot. I had no clue how to do it correctly, but it was fun.

But I completely disagree with your cursor zone opinion. If I see an opening on the right, I want to be damn sure I'm going to attack on the right. A 50/50 chance is stupid and will frustrate you. The chance attack might make it through but I'd rather not bet my in-game life on it. And how much movement does it take you to perform a LtR?

 

[Nahkuri]

Good for you. The QWOP factor wore off pretty fast for me, personally. I doubt I'm the only one.

You seemed to misunderstand my opinion. Nobody wants random attacks in a game like this. The 50/50 "chance" in my eyes only exists if you keep your cursors straight on top of the enemy. If the L/R divider was straight in front of you, I imagine you'd only need the slightest of mouse adjustment to do the swing you want. Just a tiny flick of a mouse and you're golden. That seems more intuitive to me than picturing flash game snowball fights in your head to train yourself to do a LTR swing.

The amount of movement it takes for me to perform an LTR is the same as everyone else's. Too much, too clunky for my tastes. Especially in the heat of battle.