City Scale and the Role of Buildings

[Omegoa]

The scale of Sui Generis has, at least on one occasion, been compared to that of the most recent Elder Scrolls installments. However, like most information, this bit only raises more questions about the game.

My first question is actually a delving of one asked during the Forbes interview: What scale of cities and towns can we expect from SG? The response during the interview was this:

We plan on having one major city and a number of towns, villages, castles, fortresses, farms etc.

While I'm definitely excited about the different settlements that will be featured in the game (the distinction between castles and fortresses is particularly enticing, I think), Madoc's answer doesn't shed a lot of light on the scale we can expect of these communities in-game. Operating upon the assumption that SG will span about the same area of the more recent ES installments still leaves a lot of room for interpretation in regards to city scale: The area of the ES games has stayed fairly consistent; the size of the cities has not. The result is that Skyrim's cities are laughably small in comparison to the metropolises of Morrowind. Because SG isn't voice acted, I'm anticipating something comparable to the cities featured in Morrowind, but a little illumination is always appreciated. I am, in particular, curious as to how SG's lone city will compare to the smaller communities in the game, and how these smaller, more numerous communities will compare to Morrowind's settlements.

My second question is in regards to the role of buildings in the game. So far, we've seen mostly wide open spaces with generic buildings tossed into the mix. Are these buildings going to stay generic, with only a few key ones open to exploration (like those of Diablo III), or will all buildings be accessible to player, more in line with ES games?

Lastly, what is the team's philosophy on loading screens? Will interiors and exteriors exist within the same world space, or would this be too taxing on the engine?

Thanks in advance for any answers - and keep up the good work! I haven't been this excited about a game since Skyrim was announced, and Sui Generis looks many times better.

 

[calithlin]

If going by historical/realistic pretext, expect a lot of the villages and settlements to be pretty small. Medieval villages tended consist of essentially all extended family.
"Sometimes you want to go
Where everybody knows your name"
And by want to go, I mean no one ever leaves because they fear the outside world
Though, Sui might be a bit more of an integrated community than the fiefs of old. Who knows. I'm not sure we're going to see anything as big as Vivec though. If you've played Dragon's Dogma, the main city (Gran Soren) seemed a very realistic size for a thriving city back then. Not anywhere near the size of modern cities, but plenty of things for characters to do.
Gran Soren Outside
Gran Soren Entrance

I also hope for as many enter-able buildings as possible though. They don't all need to have interesting things in them, and they can be locked for the most part (forcing us to break in and terrorize the poor sods inside to take a look).

 

[Omegoa]

I agree with your reasoning, but I think that the fact that Madoc distinguishes between 'farms, villages, and towns' implies that we'll have a number of moderately sized settlements in addition to the capitol. I think the farm would fall under your definition of a clan-based community, a village maybe a combination of two or three of the aformentioned, and a town to be a magnitude or two larger than that - the sort of place that would sport a palisade, a small market, and an inn or three depending on its size. As far as the capitol is concerned, I agree, Vivec might be a little bit egregious (although I'd be thrilled if it was of this scale); I'd be perfectly happy with something the size of Morrowind's Balmora or even Caldera or Ald'Ruhn in terms of area and population (though the last two begin to verge on large towns rather than cities in my opinion).

 

[SergeDavid]

Right now we can just say that all resources are place holders and as the game gets going into alpha we'll start seeing community sizes more in line with what they want. I do hope for a nice large city though so I can wander the streets at night, my blade tucked up my sleeve and waiting for the perfect time to strike followed by framing someone else for the murder. There needs to be allies I say!

 

[nox]

Oh I'd love to see a BIG city! The towns and villages can be small enough but the capital should be huge!
Being able to walk around back alleys, exploring, fighting some thugs hanging around the dirtiest inn or brothel, or going up to the keep/castle and look down on the city spreading out below.

(If you've read A Song of ice and fire series (Game of Thrones), I'd like it to be as big as King's Landing.)

For me going in to all the houses isn't so important, just a few and some special buildings such as inns, stores manors (where you actually could find some valuables to nick ), and castles.

 

[Omegoa]

Personally, I think I'd prefer three or four good-sized towns even if it meant the scaling down of the capitol. Now that I think about it, Oblivion also handled city scale remarkably well. Three or four towns about the size of the lesser cities in Oblivion, a capitol roughly the size of the Imperial City, and lots of space for smaller farms and villages throughout. And the best part is, it will be mostly text-based dialogue, so they'll be able to have more NPCs with more interesting dialogue. It'll be nice to have a game that features a full-feeling world again.

As far as entering houses, I think we should at least have the option to - that's what Sui Generis is all about, giving the player options, right? Even if there wasn't a lot you could do in the majority of the buildings aside from looting a container or two, just knowing that I could enter a house if I wanted to adds a lot to the atmosphere to the game.

 

[the0thMonkey]

Agreed, Oblivion did a good job. I think the main city should be about the same size as the Imperial City from Oblivion (But hopefully with a lot more life and non-generic NPCs). The ability to enter all buildings is ESSENTIAL. Otherwise immersion in this game is dead. I would prefer highly detailed, smaller settings over vast and generic ones.

@nox
I also really like the feel of the cities from A Song of Ice and Fire. If BME managed to capture that feeling it would be awesome!

 

[Tony]

I agree, Omegoa. An example where being able to go into a house would be useful is if you were attempting to flee and hide from someone/something. Your pursuer(s) are about a minute behind you as you rush into a town. You turn a corner to make sure you are not visible and then attempt to shoulder open a flimsy looking door on a house. Instead of the door handle turning (or anything else happening) you simply knock the wind out of yourself because you picked one of the magically sealed houses which has doors that don't open.

About this time is when any immersion you may have been experiencing dissipates and you quit playing out of frustration over the unrealistic mechanics. This all could have been avoided if they simply made things work as intended. A door should function like a door, not an impassible object.

 

[Omegoa]

Another factor that might be taken into consideration is the destructability of buildings. I know it's been said before that the team doesn't intend to build fully destructible environments, but it'd be something to be able to blow doors in (either through thaumaturgy or physical forace) as a means of gaining entry to buildings. I remember playing through The Witcher 2; one of the signs you get enables you to do a force push very similar to what we've seen thaumaturgy produce, and I always found it frustrating that you couldn't force entry into a building.

Another question - is everything going to exist in one world space, or are we going to see divisions between indoors and outdoors?

 

[MrIdontKnow]

Another factor that might be taken into consideration is the destructability of buildings. I know it's been said before that the team doesn't intend to build fully destructible environments, but it'd be something to be able to blow doors in (either through thaumaturgy or physical forace) as a means of gaining entry to buildings. I remember playing through The Witcher 2; one of the signs you get enables you to do a force push very similar to what we've seen thaumaturgy produce, and I always found it frustrating that you couldn't force entry into a building.

Another question - is everything going to exist in one world space, or are we going to see divisions between indoors and outdoors?

Do you mean like no loading times, where you load to go into a house and whatnot?

 

[Omegoa]

Precisely that - what is the team's philosophy on loading screens?

 

[Agnes]

We definitely want to make a big city. Considering our resources we don't know exactly how big it will be, but definitely we'd like it to be huge. That's why we are promising only one.

You will be able to enter every building, and explore them as you please.

For the time being we are planning to make indoor / outdoors separate but loading times should be very quick!

What you see in the screenshot is one quater of a town I designed. I would say a town might have more or less 40 relatively large homes

 

[Rob]

What you see in the screenshot is one quater of a town I designed.

Out of curiosity, will the rivers/canals such as the one in your screenshot have any function? Will water traffic have any role in Sui Generis?

 

[Omegoa]

Forty homes to a town? Now you're just spoiling us. That all sounds - and looks - fantastic, thank you very much for your response and the screenshot.

Of course, answers always lead to more questions, so I hope nobody minds if I ask a couple more:

First, would somewhere around eighty souls be a fair estimate for the population of a forty-home town?

Second, we've seen one architectural style in the world of SG so far. Given how early you are in the development process, can you say if there is any intention to expand the variety of architecture we'll see within the game? And will all settlements draw from the same roster of buildings?

 

[walltar]

Second, we've seen one architectural style in the world of SG so far. Given how early you are in the development process, can you say if there is any intention to expand the variety of architecture we'll see within the game? And will all settlements draw from the same roster of buildings?

This is same thing i wanted to ask ... will we see something like this:

Small very poor hunting village inside a forests.

Better suited villages with fields to support bigger town.

 

[Rob]

Second, we've seen one architectural style in the world of SG so far. Given how early you are in the development process, can you say if there is any intention to expand the variety of architecture we'll see within the game? And will all settlements draw from the same roster of buildings?

That's a very nice question!

I too would like to know the plans for this. Gut instinct says that cities, towns and villages/hamlets should have different building styles, perhaps purely on the basis of wealth. Situation with respect to resources (stone mines, forests) could influence this also. Perhaps different constituencies should have architectural trademarks too, depending on the world size. What's the official stance on this?

 

[Algea]

@ Agnes

I want to ask something too - will those stalls be used for trading or they're just decorations? God, it looks awesome, so real and authentic. I'd love to simply walk there taking in the view.

 

[Mimel]

I would prefer to see a highly populated city, one where the markets are crowded, not 12 people standing around. Even in small villages, there isn't just 12 people standing around, but in many rpgs we see maybe 10 people in a square. There should be dozens and dozens. It shouldn't look like a ghost town.

 

[walltar]

I would prefer to see a highly populated city, one where the markets are crowded, not 12 people standing around. Even in small villages, there isn't just 12 people standing around, but in many rpgs we see maybe 10 people in a square. There should be dozens and dozens. It shouldn't look like a ghost town.

Well small villages are like ghost towns most of the time. Except if there is something going on ... then everyone is in there. It would be interesting if there is some vandering trader od vhole caravan of traders going from town to town and when they are in town then everyone will be there buying and selling things. Other times people would be working on fields. Same goes for big town ... there should be big market and then there will be crowded streets and everyone will be there. Other times people will be doing whatever they do to make money for food. And at night there should be calm and quitet except for inn...

 

[Mimel]

Well small villages are like ghost towns most of the time. Except if there is something going on ... then everyone is in there.

Yes, that's my point. In MOST rpgs we go to the marketplace and we see people standing around. It's usually the same 10 people, as though only these people buy and sell things. The sellers would most likely stay the same except (as you said) when traders come to the area. I would love to see a crowded market for once, a place where it's hard to go through because there are so many people. We read about these markets in fantasy books, but rarely experience the living -breathing city life of a market day. How else are we to use the stealth skills of picking pockets and stealing an apple or two? Or lose sight of the person we are tailing?

The people should have a purpose for being there. Buying then going back home or to another business. I would be disappointed if the NPCs here would just be standing and saying the same line over and over.