Feedback and thoughts.

[ShaolinG]

Hello everyone! Finally playing this awesome game, was very excited about it) Atmosphere, graphics, physics and etc. are great! But I want to speak about flaws, and suggest a possible answers on them.

1. Here lot of feedback about it, but I must repeat. Character controls are not intuitive and aggravating.
In combat it's VERY hard to think each second in which way will you step.

Developer's answer:
"The reason why we're reluctant to add such an option is because you really won't be able to play properly with those controls and the game absolutely needs proper controls. It might even be easier when you've just started playing and against the easiest opponents but you will never learn and you will never be able to do the actually hard stuff that is in the game."

2. When you step close to wall, camera lifts up. It's really annoying.

In combat, it's deadly annoying.

I suggest that camera must NOT lift up in that case, but strafe a little bit right or left to still be able show action.
So in combat you will not be distracted by camera and will be able to focus on enemy.

3. I understand that finding new items in this game is very important thing. I like how many items looks like, but sometimes I think that items could be a little bit more noticeable.

4. I know that this community wants "true-mega-hardcore-game", but I suggest to add a "hand-made map". You need to find some ink and clean paper, and character will be drawing outlines of map. Because not everyone have a lot of free space in head to keep there game map

5. Few times I was walking into a new door and saw a guy in a wall. Just sayin'

6. Minor thing. I think engine is good enough to let player zoom in even more. So we can look closely on armor and...other...environments=D

Thanks for reading this, I hope this game will sell very nice, because it looks more nextgen than 90% AAA-titles. Combat is a blast! Sorry for bad english, it's not my native language)

 

[Anthony Obilor]

I will grant you a point for taking the time to post this well structured and with diagrams but please read this thread here and maybe you will understand why what you present is inferior to what is currently in the game.

http://www.baremettle.com/sg/forums/index.php?posts/27911/

The drunken look is because you don't control your character properly, yes there are moments when the physics looks wonky, but that will be polished up when they have an animator, which they haven't yet announced that they do.

Understand that you are trying to play a certain way that limits the complexity of what is already here. The controls and even the panning camera are wonderful, we do not need walls to disappear, that's why we have a full 3D camera. Instead of thinking of controls relative to the screen,think of it as controlling the player. Shallow games have ruined game innovation for many, its like learning a bad habit and trying to change it. What you think as the right way to do things is simply the simplest way to do it. Big companies arent thinking of changing what their cash cows already produce, and so like sheep, we are fed grass and when given apples, we be like "nawwww man, if it aint grass u cant eat it, it must be green and long and have a spiky top"

Please I am really getting tired of people not actually researching and then bashing the system cuz they havent taken the time or effort (even the devs have mentioned multiple times how different a system it is). PLease actively learn the control scheme and try to forget what has been inbred into you by cookie cutter games.

 

[El Maco]

actively learn the control scheme and try to forget what has been inbred into you by cookie cutter games.

IMHO having a more natural control over character movement and the camera is not "dumbing down" or making the game more casual. It seems that many people are struggling with the controls, me included, but everyone seems to have a different idea of how to improve them. Screen relative movement seems to be a popular request but I'm not 100% convinced that it would be the ideal solution. For example "analog" movement (in more than 8 directions) would probably require a lot of micromanaging the camera etc.

 

[ShaolinG]

The drunken look is because you don't control your character properly, yes there are moments when the physics looks wonky, but that will be polished up when they have an animator, which they haven't yet announced that they do.

"To perform a weapon swing, you must move your mouse. But character forced to always look on cursor. Because of it, combat looks like drunk fight." - It's not me, it's system itself. Try to swing real sword and always look at the tip of your sword. You will look exactly like character in this game

The controls and even the panning camera are wonderful, we do not need walls to disappear, that's why we have a full 3D camera. Instead of thinking of controls relative to the screen,think of it as controlling the player.

What you think as the right way to do things is simply the simplest way to do it.

It's not just simpliest way, it's natural and intuitive. Excuse me, but you look like a man who mastered eating soup with a spoon in his leg fingers, and now saying to all "look, it's a great way! You just haven't taken the time or effort!". I can name myself as a hardcore player, was loving playing Blade of Darkness, Dark Souls series and etc., but here my brain was confused and broken) I hope devs at least add second control option for noobs like me.

 

[Anthony Obilor]

Ok it seems you guys dont understand, you say it is natural because you have been inbred with it! you have been told, a sandwich is bread,butter and jam, when now they give you a sandwich of bread, ham and jam you shout no, that isnt a normal sandwich! Controls in relation to the camera is not natural its just what you have been taught so now it is what is natural to you. The controls are not difficult you just say it is so because you are trying to force the game to play your way,instead of learning how to master the game.
I have no problem facing my opponent and swinging and not looking drunk, drunken look only happens when i am dashing in all directions simultaneously and swinging, which is what you are probably doing all the time and thinking thats how to play it. So many people are telling you they have no problems, only new people are complaining of camera and controls and you all keep comparing it to games that are in a totally different genre, Why doesnt diablo have view from back? why does Dragon age inquisition go top down when in tactical mode? Even devs know the advantages of a top down view, Bare Mettle are revolutionising the genre with something different and you keep crying the same thing, its not like souls game, why cant I play it like this other game, that game did it this way so why cant you.

What you want isnt better, its been tested and found wanting, Maybe make your own game with your own easy camera and control and then see if it will come close in complexity to what Exanima does. Why whould my controls change the direction my character moves because of a camera? So every time I rotate the camera I have to use different buttons to chose which direction my character moves? Why use D to dash left when facing up and then A to dash left when facing down? iS THAT WHAT YOU CALL NATURAL? You are LIMITING movement to a 2D screen!!! It is not natural or intuitive! it is just what you know! And this game is not for noobs! devs have said it is hard!!! so if you admit to being a noob that cant learn anything new or innovative then pls do not dumb our game down for us!!! Read the forums and find out why because I am fed up with people not seeing it. I play 3rd person games too, and I see why it works there, this is an isometric game first! the controls allow more dynamic and precise movement if you use them properly.

It took me 2 days of playing for hours and even then I was ok but not good till like a week later. It really reminds me of a guy on this gaming show that said he wouldnt play without his own controller when it came to the final match.

And yes it is the simplest way, both fps and 3rd person use it. camera behind u, left- is left of screen,right- right of screen,up- up of screen,down -down of screen, button a attack,button b,roll+direction of screen. You control on a 2d plane instead of what we have which is a 3d plane.

Do enemies dodge dynamically? Do they try to use different angles and heights dynamically to get an advantage? The advantage of this system is your character and enemies can be more dynamic.

 

[Anthony Obilor]

It's not just simpliest way, it's natural and intuitive. Excuse me, but you look like a man who mastered eating soup with a spoon in his leg fingers, and now saying to all "look, it's a great way! You just haven't taken the time or effort!".

This analogy is wrong, instead you have been eating rice with a spoon and now They give you spagetti to eat with a fork and knife and you are complaining why cant you use a spork (a spoon with fork tip) cuz thats what you are used to and cant comprehend what the knife is for or how to hold the fork, and simply refuse to learn saying spoons are the best!

Dont forget,we had to learn too, and most of us found it better.

 

[ShaolinG]

Omg. So much words, so little meaning.

Why whould my controls change the direction my character moves because of a camera? So every time I rotate the camera I have to use different buttons to chose which direction my character moves? Why use D to dash left when facing up and then A to dash left when facing down? iS THAT WHAT YOU CALL NATURAL? It is not natural or intuitive!

I call natural when character will walk up when I press "W", and to left when I press "A". No matter what it mean for him, step forward or another direction. For me "A" is "left", "D" is "right". And if character walks in opposite direction - it's frustrating.

And this game is not for noobs! devs have said it is hard!!! so if you admit to being a noob that cant learn anything new or innovative then pls do not dumb our game down for us!!!

So as I said already, hope devs let us choose in options. "Super-pro-realisticyoudon'tunderstand-controls" or those, which actually playable for another 90% of people.

 

[Tony]

Omg. So much words, so little meaning.



I call natural when character will walk up when I press "W", and to left when I press "A". No matter what it mean for him, step forward or another direction. For me "A" is "left", "D" is "right". And if character walks in opposite direction - it's frustrating.



So as I said already, hope devs let us choose in options. "Super-pro-realisticyoudon'tunderstand-controls" or those, which actually playable for another 90% of people.

So basically you want the devs to accommodate people who refuse to learn a new control system by breaking their current game to do so? They have already responded to such requests by saying it will never happen. Unless an idea is presented that improves upon instead of limits or restricts how things work then it won't even be considered. This topic has been discussed repeatedly and I'm sure we'll see it a hundred more times but the devs will not ruin their game for the sake of appealing to those who are too stubborn to learn how to play.

 

[Anthony Obilor]

Omg. So much words, so little meaning.



I call natural when character will walk up when I press "W", and to left when I press "A". No matter what it mean for him, step forward or another direction. For me "A" is "left", "D" is "right". And if character walks in opposite direction - it's frustrating.



So as I said already, hope devs let us choose in options. "Super-pro-realisticyoudon'tunderstand-controls" or those, which actually playable for another 90% of people.

A is always left for the character, what u want is ur screen to control the character movement, which changes relative to where he is positioned.

Well if you aren't bright enough to see meaning in all I wrote then I rest my case cuz you will never understand. The game isn't meant for those that like casual games with only stats controlling difficulty.

 

[El Maco]

Well if you aren't bright enough to see meaning in all I wrote then I rest my case cuz you will never understand.

I don't think a response like that was called for. I also fail to understand why an optional, alternative way to interpret the WASD keyboard input would break the game as is being suggested.

 

[Anthony Obilor]

I don't think a response like that was called for. I also fail to understand why an optional, alternative way to interpret the WASD keyboard input would break the game as is being suggested.

Because like many times and multiple people have mentioned, it has been tried and found wanting but it's like u don't hear us and still ask the same damn question "but whyyyyyyy". And after we try nicely to explain, u go "but whyyyyyyy" again.... It has been tried and in the current isometric and dynamic combat mode it simply doesn't cut it because it limits play to a 2d plane(<--this is the screen mode u keep emphasizing about.

An alternative method would make it a whole different game. Pls if you love isometric rpgs and a fair challenge, give this games control a good chance. Remember when u first picked up a game pad, or when right stick was introduced to games, it took getting used to, that is exactly the same devotion bare mettle is asking of u, but u r so used to the current controls in most other games and simply refuse to relearn a new control method that has been tried and tested to be the best choice for this new and yes innovative system.

 

[Pilluminati]

I honestly think a lot of the complaints would go away if some other aspects such as movement and attacks were tightened up a bit. Movement isn't very precise and responsiveness varies depending on your previous actions and whether you just performed a dash for example which immidiately isn't obvious to a new player. The hold to dash option is another thing you have to learn. Starting & ending height of swings is randomized. All of these things become very confusing and overwhelming to a new player. The cursor relative movement is just the icing on the cake and one thing that is immidiately noticeable. I remember when starting out it felt like I had no real control over my character and it did feel a bit like playing Sumotori dreams. If the cursor relative movement was the only thing new players had to fight against they'd probably be more patient with it.

 

[ShaolinG]

Well, I saw few new comments about controls, and I think that I must repeat it 2nd time: I hope devs let us choose in options. "Super-pro-realisticyoudon'tunderstand-controls" or those, which actually playable for another 90% of people.
I just don't understand. All I want is receive a good game. Beautiful, interesting and playable game. Instead of it I've got replies that I'm a noob from people who don't even know me or my gaming experience.
Also I want big sales to this game. And not by transforming it into casual game. I'm a hardcore gamer, so I don't just threw this game into trash, when saw that controls are a little less than playable. But huge amount of gamers will.

 

[-Tim-]

Well, I saw few new comments about controls

And they are appreciated. Controls are just a hot potato on these forums because there's been a lot of discussion about them I really like how you edited those images to illustrate your points.

 

[ShaolinG]

And they are appreciated. Controls are just a hot potato on these forums because there's been a lot of discussion about them I really like how you edited those images to illustrate your points.

Thanks
Well, maybe there's been a lot of discussion about it because many people are dissatisfied by it?
I want best possible future to this game and just wrote my thoughts how make it better. If soooo many people think same, why just don't add 2nd control option?

 

[Tony]

Well, I saw few new comments about controls, and I think that I must repeat it 2nd time: I hope devs let us choose in options. "Super-pro-realisticyoudon'tunderstand-controls" or those, which actually playable for another 90% of people.
I just don't understand. All I want is receive a good game. Beautiful, interesting and playable game. Instead of it I've got replies that I'm a noob from people who don't even know me or my gaming experience.
Also I want big sales to this game. And not by transforming it into casual game. I'm a hardcore gamer, so I don't just threw this game into trash, when saw that controls are a little less than playable. But huge amount of gamers will.

I wasn't calling you any names or attempting to attack you in any way and I apologize if I gave you that impression. I was simply stating that this discussion has been had numerous times and informing you what the devs stance was concerning it; I noticed your title was "member" so you don't have access to the insider forum where most of this discussion has occurred.

Suggestions are great but people shouldn't assume that the current control scheme was just randomly picked out of a hat; a lot of thought and trial-and-error went into creating the current control scheme to allow everything that is currently possible and also support future mechanics that have yet to be implemented. Before so hastily rejecting the control scheme perhaps think of why it was created the way it was - there are valid reasons for everything and nothing was randomly chosen.

The current control scheme is easy to understand and use once you break habits formed from playing other games. Once you learn a bit of muscle memory you can simply react and the awkwardness goes away. It allows almost limitless possibilities with very few key presses; this is a very efficient and effective system.

Thanks
Well, maybe there's been a lot of discussion about it because many people are dissatisfied by it?
I want best possible future to this game and just wrote my thoughts how make it better. If soooo many people think same, why just don't add 2nd control option?

The devs would add a second control system if one was offered that didn't limit or restrict gameplay. So far no viable alternative has been offered since everything suggested would negatively impact gameplay.

 

[ShaolinG]

The current control scheme is easy to understand and use once you break habits formed from playing other games. Once you learn a bit of muscle memory you can simply react and the awkwardness goes away. It allows almost limitless possibilities with very few key presses; this is a very efficient and effective system.

Thanks for understandable reply. Those many-many other games with intuitive controls have it not without reasons. Ok, I think I understood community of this game. You're nice guys, but strange. You think that player must fight not just against enemy, but also against his(player's) habits, keyboard and muscle memory. I will just shut up now and wait for game release.

 

[Tony]

Thanks for understandable reply. Those many-many other games with intuitive controls have it not without reasons. Ok, I think I understood community of this game. You're nice guys, but strange. You think that player must fight not just against enemy, but also against his(player's) habits, keyboard and muscle memory. I will just shut up now and wait for game release.

I won't deny being a bit strange . But my point was Exanima offers possibilities not present in other games, hence a new control scheme is necessary to take advantage of this; I'm saying that if people attempt to play Exanima like every other game it just won't work well. If the devs did attempt to implement a "typical" control scheme then what is currently possible would no longer be possible.

I do not think it's unreasonable to expect players to learn a new control scheme when things function so drastically different than other games.

 

[El Maco]

Sorry about the rant below. Yesterday I tried to play the game after a small break but I had to conclude that the control scheme is still making it hard for me to enjoy playing. I admit, most of the bad experience was my own fault. I tried to adjust my xbox controller mod so that the combat would be actually pleasurable. I'm now losing hope of that ever happening. Its a shame because dungeon exploration is so much better with the controller.

I also noted that one of my favorite youtubers (Splattercat gaming) made a small review of Exanima. He clearly liked the game but he spent a great portion of the 30-minute video apologizing for the control scheme, repeatedly implying that only a small fraction of people will enjoy this game and others should stay clear. I think I made the connection myself, too, that the control scheme reminds me of something from the 90's and not something modern and accessible. I know making the game more accessible sounds like a really bad idea to most of you, but whatever.

Its difficult to pinpoint what exactly is it that bothers me the most. Overall the game just feels sluggish. Most of the time I'm not controlling a nimble hero, I'm controlling a heavy duty vehicle or something. It must be a combination of many small things that builds up and starts to annoy me. Movement in combat mode is somewhat lagged and not very precise at all. Making the right keypresses from a random camera angle is a pain. The rotating tank controls in the exploration mode are frustrating and cause unnecessary deaths. Moving with right mouse button pressed is slightly better but still feels like I'm dragging the hero with a large rubber band. Probably some of the procedurally generated animations are not as natural as I'd like them to be, but this I can forgive. I just wish the developers could find a way to tighten up the controls, much like Pilliuminati said. Even if the logic itself stays the same, I would really like to see an improvement in the level of control I have over the character.

 

[Tony]

Sorry about the rant below. Yesterday I tried to play the game after a small break but I had to conclude that the control scheme is still making it hard for me to enjoy playing. I admit, most of the bad experience was my own fault. I tried to adjust my xbox controller mod so that the combat would be actually pleasurable. I'm now losing hope of that ever happening. Its a shame because dungeon exploration is so much better with the controller.

I also noted that one of my favorite youtubers (Splattercat gaming) made a small review of Exanima. He clearly liked the game but he spent a great portion of the 30-minute video apologizing for the control scheme, repeatedly implying that only a small fraction of people will enjoy this game and others should stay clear. I think I made the connection myself, too, that the control scheme reminds me of something from the 90's and not something modern and accessible. I know making the game more accessible sounds like a really bad idea to most of you, but whatever.

Its difficult to pinpoint what exactly is it that bothers me the most. Overall the game just feels sluggish. Most of the time I'm not controlling a nimble hero, I'm controlling a heavy duty vehicle or something. It must be a combination of many small things that builds up and starts to annoy me. Movement in combat mode is somewhat lagged and not very precise at all. Making the right keypresses from a random camera angle is a pain. The rotating tank controls in the exploration mode are frustrating and cause unnecessary deaths. Moving with right mouse button pressed is slightly better but still feels like I'm dragging the hero with a large rubber band. Probably some of the procedurally generated animations are not as natural as I'd like them to be, but this I can forgive. I just wish the developers could find a way to tighten up the controls, much like Pilliuminati said. Even if the logic itself stays the same, I would really like to see an improvement in the level of control I have over the character.

I don't think anyone is against the controls becoming more accessible. The devs themselves have actually tried to go this route when creating the current control scheme; they said they want to enable complete functionality with as few key presses as possible instead of requiring an insane amount of key presses to do basic things. And in this regard I think they've been quite successful. W, A, S, D for movement + mouse cursor for aiming is a very common control scheme found in many games.

What isn't commonly used is having character relative movement as opposed to screen relative movement. I think this is the biggest hurdle for people to overcome since they're simply not used to it. But it IS possible to get used to it and it DOES function very, very well. It allows 360 degrees of movement which is a huge improvement over the eight directions you get when using screen relative movement. Also, people think the camera must always be behind their character which again is something that makes sense for screen relative movement but not for character relative movement.

Now, what no one has been able to do is offer suggestions that work better than what the devs already have in place. The devs would love to make the game even more accessible if possible. The question is: how to do this without sacrificing the functionality which is possible with the current system?