Komuflage
Insider
Looks really good. The bar on the top though "Overall skill progress" does it represents the skill cap? Hence when it's at max, u can't train any more skills (Unless u first unlearn some)
Milestones
- Thread starter fluffydino2000
- Start date
Madoc
Project Lead
Yes, but we'd prefer a different visual representation. While we do know what we want in terms of progression and "end game" skill balance we're still not entirely sure how we want to handle the overall cap. It could be a soft cap, essentially still allowing you to make very gradual progress for some time for example. Soft caps we consider to be generally a bad idea in competitive games because you ultimately want to know you're on an even playing field. For SG which is at heart single player or cooperative game with huge replayability it might be good and more realistic.
You will be able to gradually retrain all your skills (and milestones) at will making the only permanent choices you make those made at character creation which are basically physique and innate thaumaturgy. We have often considered a later choice of a secondary thaumaturgic specialisation but we're not sure this is a good idea, it might end up hurting build diversity rather than enhacing it as some forms of thaumaturgy may have particular strengths as a source of utility powers or some combinations could be particularly effective resulting in standard builds. It would be much more difficult to balance but it might be possible.
Tom
Insider
Nice! It looks very good Madoc, especially for a WIP.
If I had to guess, the milestones for Light Weapons are "dual wielding", "parry 1" and "parry 2", from left to right. The one on the far left for armor seems to deal with mobility while wearing armor.
Clearly, this is a sign that if I call, the Devs answer. Therefore I will wield this power wisely, so as to beckon their appearance during dire times
If I had to guess, the milestones for Light Weapons are "dual wielding", "parry 1" and "parry 2", from left to right. The one on the far left for armor seems to deal with mobility while wearing armor.
Clearly, this is a sign that if I call, the Devs answer. Therefore I will wield this power wisely, so as to beckon their appearance during dire times
Komuflage
Insider
Woh.. Ty for the response.
If I might say, I personally think that the skill cap should not be to high, meaning u can only Master a few skills (1-2, maybe 3 top) Since having it to low, or to high, will often make so that each "build" only differ by a small bit (Souls game for instance, where u can max every stat, so basically every lvl 713 character is more or less the same)
In response to the Thaumaturgic specialisation point. I think I see what you mean, only having 1 specialisation, might make builds quite similar. While having multiple, will be hard to balance, and most certainly, there will be some combinations that are just better than others. However, this is bound to happen even with just one specialisation, since there are 6 different forms (unless i added/removed some) there will be 1 or 2 that are just better in general.
At least, imo, if it's possible, try make it so that we can have 2 specialisations. Since it will really enhance build diversity, if you manage to balance it somewhat right
fluffydino2000
Insider
What if you had a knowledge cap as well, so you can untrain certain powers overtime. If a power has a tweak of it, unlearning that will unlearn any direct tweaks. That way, over time you can eventually be any thaumaturge you want, but initially you'll advance in innate as it happens naturally. Obviously, you still have the balance issue. You could also make it so advancing in insight would allow for more available knowledge. Allowing for pure thaumaturges to seperate themselves from everyone else.
In response to the milestone stuff, I'm assuming you select an available box which brings a drop down or new window to select milestones from? Then you pick a milestone of whatever level you're on and certain things aren't trainable as you don't have the preceding selection? If that's the case then this system looks great to me. I really like how you've made the UI look as well. The lack of numbers is really refreshing also. Oh, and by the way, nice terrain.
In response to the milestone stuff, I'm assuming you select an available box which brings a drop down or new window to select milestones from? Then you pick a milestone of whatever level you're on and certain things aren't trainable as you don't have the preceding selection? If that's the case then this system looks great to me. I really like how you've made the UI look as well. The lack of numbers is really refreshing also. Oh, and by the way, nice terrain.
Komuflage
Insider
How will learning a skill work in the game?
This has been touched on before, but the only thing I can remember is that just attacking a creature with a Shortsword, won't increase ur Ligt weapon skills, and that in a way it'll be trained over time.
But honestly the only three ways I can think of how it could work is either.
Using the Weapon will increase ur skill with it. Which is affirmed it wont work like that.
Getting experience, and then choosing what to level up. And since there is no Levels, I guess this wont work
Deciding a skill to increase, which will overtime level itself up. (How it works in EVE. You pick a skill and but it in the training queue, and after a specific amount of time, you'd advance in that skill to the next level)
By looking at the picture, it seems that you can chose milestone before hand, (although it'll be marked by a Red +) and then once u level up that skill, u unlock that milestone (Which suggest, that since u can pick before had, u chose a skill which will increase over time, "Eve" style) Now I don't think this is the case, I think u've come up with either a mix, or something new. So if you've the time, would u care to explain?
This has been touched on before, but the only thing I can remember is that just attacking a creature with a Shortsword, won't increase ur Ligt weapon skills, and that in a way it'll be trained over time.
But honestly the only three ways I can think of how it could work is either.
Using the Weapon will increase ur skill with it. Which is affirmed it wont work like that.
Getting experience, and then choosing what to level up. And since there is no Levels, I guess this wont work
Deciding a skill to increase, which will overtime level itself up. (How it works in EVE. You pick a skill and but it in the training queue, and after a specific amount of time, you'd advance in that skill to the next level)
By looking at the picture, it seems that you can chose milestone before hand, (although it'll be marked by a Red +) and then once u level up that skill, u unlock that milestone (Which suggest, that since u can pick before had, u chose a skill which will increase over time, "Eve" style) Now I don't think this is the case, I think u've come up with either a mix, or something new. So if you've the time, would u care to explain?
Madoc
Project Lead
We like the idea of practice based systems because they seem more natural than earning points to distribute. What we absolutely want to avoid is something that causes you to do repetitive things (grinding) or do what's best for levelling rather than what makes most sense to you.
Our solution is that you do need to practice skills to learn them but you only need a little practice and then time to absorb what you learned. Think of it like this: you practice something and this gives your brain inputs to process (and even "hardwire") over time, you sleep over it and the next time you try your hand at it you will notice some improvement. So in SG practicing something every so often allows you to learn it but this takes some time, more than a certain amount practice will not allow you to learn faster. The next time you use the skill you will be able to appreciate the progress you've made.
The exact details of how it works are something we are not going to disclose as it may affect how people play which is exactly what we're trying to avoid. The intention is that you will never have to go out of your way to learn more efficiently, you can just play normally which presumably includes occasionally using the skills that you intend to learn. Even if there are certain skills that you practice "artificially" this should feel like quite a natural thing for your character to be doing.
There is no overall cap for thaumaturgic knowledge and hence no reason to allow "retraining". Your ability to use powers properly and how effective they are is based on thaumaturgic power for which there is no hard cap planned.
Our solution is that you do need to practice skills to learn them but you only need a little practice and then time to absorb what you learned. Think of it like this: you practice something and this gives your brain inputs to process (and even "hardwire") over time, you sleep over it and the next time you try your hand at it you will notice some improvement. So in SG practicing something every so often allows you to learn it but this takes some time, more than a certain amount practice will not allow you to learn faster. The next time you use the skill you will be able to appreciate the progress you've made.
The exact details of how it works are something we are not going to disclose as it may affect how people play which is exactly what we're trying to avoid. The intention is that you will never have to go out of your way to learn more efficiently, you can just play normally which presumably includes occasionally using the skills that you intend to learn. Even if there are certain skills that you practice "artificially" this should feel like quite a natural thing for your character to be doing.
There is no overall cap for thaumaturgic knowledge and hence no reason to allow "retraining". Your ability to use powers properly and how effective they are is based on thaumaturgic power for which there is no hard cap planned.
fluffydino2000
Insider
That sounds like a great system for learning skills. I like the idea that you need time to reflect. It will help to stop grinding as players will likely not see any improvement in the moment and so will probably get bored with it. Then they'll later see the normal amount of progress they've made in the past. One question I'm not sure has been asked before is will progression of the character be linear and slowed by the later challenge or will the progression slow down?
I'll try to add these new details to the wiki tomorrow.
I'll try to add these new details to the wiki tomorrow.
Rob
Moderator
All sounds great!
Given that it takes time for you to gain expertise in skills, will you also lose skill if you don't practice often enough? Have you thought much about that? That would avoid people grinding different skills in turn (like in Skyrim, where you can get level100 in one-handed, then level100 in archery, then level100 in destruction magic, or whatever...) and instead people will have to ensure that they hone each of their chosen skills sufficiently often if they want to be good at them... that could really help to forge a real identity for the characters.
Also, talking about replayability, presumably you've coded it in a way that allows you to easily update the panel after the game is released, e.g. in a future patch/addon/extension? For example to include new "skills", or additional "trees"? I can imagine that adding new ways to play the game at a later date will help replayability, especially if they really cause a big change in tactics.
Given that it takes time for you to gain expertise in skills, will you also lose skill if you don't practice often enough? Have you thought much about that? That would avoid people grinding different skills in turn (like in Skyrim, where you can get level100 in one-handed, then level100 in archery, then level100 in destruction magic, or whatever...) and instead people will have to ensure that they hone each of their chosen skills sufficiently often if they want to be good at them... that could really help to forge a real identity for the characters.
Also, talking about replayability, presumably you've coded it in a way that allows you to easily update the panel after the game is released, e.g. in a future patch/addon/extension? For example to include new "skills", or additional "trees"? I can imagine that adding new ways to play the game at a later date will help replayability, especially if they really cause a big change in tactics.
Komuflage
Insider
ZaratanCho
Insider
Pretty much everything sounds incredibly good, I like it alot. The part about the caps sounds great.
I get Robs idea, it is not bad, but at a certain point even if you don't practice alot you will still be very good at something you have alot of experiance in and have trained alot in before. A little rusty, maybe. ;D
As expected you have things going in a great direction, the ideas and concepts you are going for are wonderful ;D
When you become good/very good at something usually progression becomes many times harder. Getting from bad to skilled in something and from skilled to great is a huge difference, for alot of people is like a wall they can't pass. ;D So it seems more natural for progression to slow down when you reach a very high level of skill in a certain area.
Of course there are exceptions. Some people learn for 1 year things that have taken others 20 years ;D
I get Robs idea, it is not bad, but at a certain point even if you don't practice alot you will still be very good at something you have alot of experiance in and have trained alot in before. A little rusty, maybe. ;D
As expected you have things going in a great direction, the ideas and concepts you are going for are wonderful ;D
When you become good/very good at something usually progression becomes many times harder. Getting from bad to skilled in something and from skilled to great is a huge difference, for alot of people is like a wall they can't pass. ;D So it seems more natural for progression to slow down when you reach a very high level of skill in a certain area.
Of course there are exceptions. Some people learn for 1 year things that have taken others 20 years ;D
Fawz
Insider
Simple and straight forward, while still seeming to allow a good deal of depth. I like it. Also really enjoying the overall theme all the UI elements seem to share.
As for the design of it, I'm all for making the player use what he wants to get better at without having to force grinding.
As for the design of it, I'm all for making the player use what he wants to get better at without having to force grinding.
Rob
Moderator
Sure, it was more of a thought than an idea - just thinking out loud
You're completely right, although I for one can really tell the difference if I stop running for a month or two and then try and get back into it!
I don't really like the idea of skills decreasing if you don't practice them... but on the other hand I don't like it when you reach a skill cap and then you've got nowhere to go - nothing to improve. I'm in favor of everything that's been said above, but I do have a concern that it could get a bit "boring" without some incentive to carry on playing... something to carry on improving... tricky one.
Komuflage
Insider
Going a bit of topic, but is this the general opinion of people? (Not pointing it at u specific Rob, just asking everyone, if they fell this is important)
I noticed when I started playing GW2 that it seemed quite a few people though this way, I had a few friend who stopped playing because the character progression was to small, and there not being any gear treadmill.
For me personally my reason to keep playing is to get better at the game, being able to overcome the most difficult challenges as fast and optimal as possible.
When I play a raid or dungeon in a MMO, my goal is to beat the boss. Not to get the Epic Sword of doom that he might drop.
However, I still like progression, but for me it's a secondary thing, it's not what keeps me going. (I didn't change gear for the last 200hours in GW2, but I still enjoyed the gameplay)
So again, not pointing this post to u Rob, rather everyone else: Is progression a main goal for u in a game, and will u get bored if there aren't any/very little progression in a game?
ZaratanCho
Insider
For me character progression is pretty important (by character progression i mean exactly that, the character, exluding armor,weapons and such). Becoming better yourself, at playing the game is also a big part for me, but to be able to improve your character more adds alot, even if it just a little, and it can be a variety of things really, to feel your character has improved. You are correct that even if I reach the limit this will probably not make me stop playing if the game is good, I guess it really can be called secondary (the progression). Setting yourself goals as "I will kill this boss under 10 minutes" or "I will reach level 5 for less then 1 hour" can be fun and may help you become a better player, but this is to a degree cause by progressing to the complete end in the game world.
At some point I do want my character to be very strong and be able to hande most things relatively easy, but still be possible to get beaten by something very weaker than you if you make a mistake/underestimate that weak opponent. I want to be able to become incredibly powerful being but keeping some balance of course and "realism". As i said even someone incredibly strong can lose to an inferior enemy, anything can happen in fight.
I just don't want to have cap that is too limited. In some games i always look for mods or ways to unlock the level cap or skill cap(maybe), but I never abuse such things. ;D And I love the focus to make the game in a way that you are not thinking about the most effeciant way to level up or something like that, to be ready to kill and do anything if it gives alot of xp or currency. When I play i act as i would in reality and in reality there is infinire room to better your self and progress, so the best thing for me would be to have a sort of limitless progression, but this is limited by alot of things in a game such as balance, resources, mechanics and more. ;D
As I said above the information that was just given about the caps and thaumaturgy, and everything, sounds awesome to me and I have nothing to complain about, it is exactly the opposite. ;D
At some point I do want my character to be very strong and be able to hande most things relatively easy, but still be possible to get beaten by something very weaker than you if you make a mistake/underestimate that weak opponent. I want to be able to become incredibly powerful being but keeping some balance of course and "realism". As i said even someone incredibly strong can lose to an inferior enemy, anything can happen in fight.
I just don't want to have cap that is too limited. In some games i always look for mods or ways to unlock the level cap or skill cap(maybe), but I never abuse such things. ;D And I love the focus to make the game in a way that you are not thinking about the most effeciant way to level up or something like that, to be ready to kill and do anything if it gives alot of xp or currency. When I play i act as i would in reality and in reality there is infinire room to better your self and progress, so the best thing for me would be to have a sort of limitless progression, but this is limited by alot of things in a game such as balance, resources, mechanics and more. ;D
As I said above the information that was just given about the caps and thaumaturgy, and everything, sounds awesome to me and I have nothing to complain about, it is exactly the opposite. ;D
Rob
Moderator
Sure, getting better at skillfully playing the game is great for the feeling of personal accomplishment. My view is that games are very complex, and work (or don't work) on many different levels. It's great when games achieve perfection - or as close to perfection as possible - on many different fronts. Being able to "level up", or increase skills through achievement, is something that I've come to enjoy, providing it doesn't get tedious or turn into grinding. Of course, I don't want Sui Generis to conform to what I already know, so I have a very open mind when BM innovates away from conventional approaches. At the same time, I'd rather play devil's advocate and raise an issue for discussion than simply say "yes that's great"!
fluffydino2000
Insider
I think progression is important to a lot of people, but people appreciate it in different ways which people don't describe as progression. Progression has become a game mechanic and I think that is what people are referring to when they say it isn't important to them. But progression in a story to some people is as important as getting new gear. Progression isn't necessary though, if a game is fun without progression it's a tribute to how well the game is designed. I do think it's rare for no progression to exist though, even if its just the progression of player skill.
Rob
Moderator
Very true, as exemplified by the old 80s/90s point&click games, e.g. Simon the Sorcerer. It's most important for a game to be addictively engaging!
Komuflage
Insider
I've should have pointed out when I asked my question that I was talking about things like Gear progression and Character progression etcetera.
