Your Thoughts on Armor?

[Bullethead]

Now that my skills have developed enough to get well into the expert arena with all the armor options, I've been experimenting with their effects. I'm sure I'm wrong and that all the old-timers have long since figured out the true nature, so I'd like to hear more expert opinion here. Anyway, from what I've seen so far, it's like this:

Armor Advantages:
* The higher the resistance of your armor in the location hit, the less damage you take in total.
* The more effective the armor is against a type of attack, the more of the damage you take is nonpermanent (dark yellow) as opposed to permanent (red).
* The more armor you have in general, the faster red damage seems to heal over time (could very well be wrong here).
* The more armor you have in general, the harder you are to knock over and the easier time you have pushing enemies.

Armor Disadvantages:
* Increasing armor mass slows the part of the body armored. Leg armor reduces movement speed and maneuverability, arm/hand armor decreases weapon animation speed (for both attacks and parries), and body armor decreases "rate of fire" by adding delay between pressing the button and the attack animation starting.
* The more armor you have, the slower you get up if you fall down.
* If non-equipped inventory mass becomes a thing, the more armor you wear, the less loot you can carry without suffering ill effects.

There are probably more of both, and some of these are probably wrong, but I'm thinking it's somewhere along these lines.

So, for hand-to-hand, there seems to be a spectrum depending on how skillful you are and how you want to play. Everything from the "naked arena challenge" to heavily armored and all points in between. However, even with my own relatively low skill level, it does seem that it's better to go lighter than heavier. Getting hit, even when heavily armored, sitll hurts, and you can still be knocked out from nonpermanent damage without losing a drop of blood. Therefore, the best defenses are avoiding blows and parrying them, so you need speedy arms and legs. Also, you have to be able to attack during fleeting windows of opportunity, which means minimizing "rate of fire" delays from body armor. I'm not yet good enough to avoid all hits so I wear some armor to reduce red damage, but not so much that it really becomes an impediment.

But eventually enemies are going to be shooting arrows at us. When that happens, going around with little or no armor will be asking to become a pin cushion. So I'm thinking that a light-to-medium amount of armor will become the norm eventually. Thoughts?

 

[-Tim-]

Much of this is subject to change, if only for the implementation of armour skills in the upcoming patch.

Armor Advantages:
* The higher the resistance of your armor in the location hit, the less damage you take in total.
* The more effective the armor is against a type of attack, the more of the damage you take is nonpermanent (dark yellow) as opposed to permanent (red).
* The more armor you have in general, the faster red damage seems to heal over time (could very well be wrong here).
* The more armor you have in general, the harder you are to knock over and the easier time you have pushing enemies.

I believe you are correct about the first two points. The third point is incorrect, because red damage does not heal over time, unless you use the blue salve in story mode, and the speed of this is not affected by (not) wearing armour. The fourth point is a bit more complicated, I think. It appears to be something like this:

1. Having more armour does not increase the character's weight, so it does not make it easier to knock others over. It also does not give the character more balance.
   
2. What having more armour does do, is reduce damage taken. And it appears to me that this translates into a less 'pronounced' physical hit reaction by the character, making him more likely to stay on his feet after taking a big hit.

Armor Disadvantages:
* Increasing armor mass slows the part of the body armored. Leg armor reduces movement speed and maneuverability, arm/hand armor decreases weapon animation speed (for both attacks and parries), and body armor decreases "rate of fire" by adding delay between pressing the button and the attack animation starting.
* The more armor you have, the slower you get up if you fall down.

I believe the first two points are not yet true for the current public version. The new version introduces armour skills and encumbrance (the more armour you wear, the higher the encumbrance), with a high encumbrance slowing down overall movement. Some of the armour skills mitigate this effect.

 

[Bullethead]

The third point is incorrect, because red damage does not heal over time, unless you use the blue salve in story mode, and the speed of this is not affected by (not) wearing armour.

Thanks for the reply. You know many things I don't .

Never having had metal armor in the dungeon, I can't vouch for that. But in the novice arena, once you get the chain body armor from the maul guy, it seems that about 1/2 your red damage heals between fights. In the expert arena, where you can start wearing metal armor, it seems the same.

The fourth point is a bit more complicated, I think. It appears to be something like this:

1. Having more armour does not increase the character's weight, so it does not make it easier to knock others over. It also does not give the character more balance.
   
2. What having more armour does do, is reduce damage taken. And it appears to me that this translates into a less 'pronounced' physical hit reaction by the character, making him more likely to stay on his feet after taking a big hit.

Seems to me you can't have one without the other. F = m * a, as Sir Isaac Newton said. If the force from the hit you take is the same, then the only way to experience less acceleration (as in, being harder to knock down) is if your mass is higher, which comes from wearing more armor.

Which brings up a nit to pick with the item details screen. Weapons have a slider at the top showing how heavy they are. Armor items do not, nor anything else saying how heavy they are. It would be nice if things were otherwise.

I believe the first two points are not yet true for the current public version. The new version introduces armour skills and encumbrance (the more armour you wear, the higher the encumbrance), with a high encumbrance slowing down overall movement. Some of the armour skills mitigate this effect.

I came to my opinion about armor slowing you down as follows:

In the novice arena, the 6th foe has a greatsword. It's slightly better than the starter greatsword but not decisively so. However, he's got light armor. If you've been piling on all the armor you can loot from the 1st 5 foes, then he'll run rings around you. I find that to beat him, I need to decrease my own armor.

In the expert arena, the 4th foe has a greatsword a plate breastplate but not much else. The 3rd foe has a bardiche and a full set of laminated armor with a chain vest underneath. The 2nd foe is a chick in full leather with sword and shield, and the 1st foe is lighly armored with a 2-handed axe. Taking these from the get-go with a greatsword and starter armor for the expert arena, and looting all you can, you can get to the greatsword guy (#4) no problem. But if you're all armored up from the 3rd guy, he'll run circles around you and carve you up. And if you restart at when he kills you and go through the 1st 3 foes with armor of the 3rd guy, then #2 (the leather-wearing sword&shield chick) will wipe you out because you're now so slow, despite you having beaten her easily the 1st time due to not wearing so much armor.

 

[Iscandar]

To me, the purpose of armor is NOT to decrease oncoming damage or become more "tanky." I play just as carefully and reactively as I would wearing no armor.

My philosophy for wearing armor is so that, on the off chance I get hit, the damage I receive will be temporary and insubstantial. To me, armor is all about long term survivability, not to be used as a crutch. In this way, I can maximize the benefits of armor while minimizing drawbacks.

Look at it this way. If I were armored fighting an unarmored person, but I was the one being defensive, that unarmored bloke is in for it. He's putting himself in far more danger than I am trying to chase after me. I'd give far fewer openings, and when I am hit it wouldn't hurt much. He, however, opens himself up substantially, and every hit on him is potentially fatal. See the extreme advantage here?

 

[Don Kanaille]

Never having had metal armor in the dungeon, I can't vouch for that. But in the novice arena, once you get the chain body armor from the maul guy, it seems that about 1/2 your red damage heals between fights. In the expert arena, where you can start wearing metal armor, it seems the same.

Arena healing a part of your permanent damage in between fights is just a convenience feature. Im pretty sure it is a fixed percentage of your total health bar every time (probably somehwere between 10-20%) and that armor has no effect on that.
Once you get better armor, like a chain shirt, you´ll just take less permanent damage overall which is why getting about 15% of your total health back is a greater percentage of the red damage you have actually taken.
So, lets say, after you first opponent you took 50% permanent damage and your bar is now half read. You heal for 15% of your total health bar and are now at 35% permanent damage, so roughly 33% of your permanent damage was healed (from 50% down to 35%). When you have better armor, you maybe only take 20% permanent damage. Again, 15% of your total health bar is healed, leaving you with only 5% permanent damage, but now 75% of the permanent damage you had were healed (from 20% down to 5%).


I can confirm that permanent damage in the story mode does not heal at all regardless of armor.

 

[-Tim-]

Seems to me you can't have one without the other. F = m * a, as Sir Isaac Newton said. If the force from the hit you take is the same, then the only way to experience less acceleration (as in, being harder to knock down) is if your mass is higher, which comes from wearing more armor.

If the only forces at work here were Newtonian laws, then you'd be right

Which brings up a nit to pick with the item details screen. Weapons have a slider at the top showing how heavy they are. Armor items do not, nor anything else saying how heavy they are. It would be nice if things were otherwise.

The next iteration will bring exactly that.

 

[Bullethead]

If the only forces at work here were Newtonian laws, then you'd be right

I thought this game was all about the physics and trying to make them realistic. So if not Newton, what does it use?

The next iteration will bring exactly that.

Wonderful. But OTOH, this isn't very useful without something showing how close to your weight capacity you are. Are there any plans for that or will it remain trial-and-error? I'm not asking for numbers, but some sort of capacity slider would be nice.

 

[Don Kanaille]

Well, the current beta builds have an "encumbrance" stat for armor pieces, which I assume sums up factors like weight, fit and all that. The more encumbrance, the slower you are; though there are armor skills you can train to ignore a certain amount of encumbrance.

It´s currently not shown with a slider, but with a dot menu similar to how weapon stats look. And on your character screen you can view your overall encumbrance from the items you currently have equipped.

 

[Bullethead]

It´s currently not shown with a slider, but with a dot menu similar to how weapon stats look. And on your character screen you can view your overall encumbrance from the items you currently have equipped.

This sounds good. Just as long as there's something that lets me know when I'm getting overload before I find out the hard way in the next fight .

 

[Tony]

This sounds good. Just as long as there's something that lets me know when I'm getting overload before I find out the hard way in the next fight .

The armor encumbrance affects all movements, in and out of combat mode. This includes things like the speed at which you get back up after falling over. You should notice you're moving slower just by walking about (long before you engage in combat).

 

[Lyle "Chip" Chipperson]

I've played through the 3 levels 4 times now. the first time I played through, I used swords and wore every bit of armor I could find. 3 layers on my head, arms and legs, 4 layers on my torso + a belt. The fights I had were long and it took many hits to take down zombies. I had to use both healing salves and finished with a lot of red damage still. During my 3rd play through, I used blacksmith hammer and maul. I wore trousers, boots, belt, plate bracers and spaulders and that's it. The difference is like night and day. I killed nearly every zombie with 2 hits. One giant swing to knock them down and then one overhead to finish them off. I was able to finish without using any salves.

I think the biggest drawback to armor is that you reduce your damage output. if you are wearing max armor, there isn't any point in winding up for big swings.

 

[Greenbrog]

I don't think armor really makes you hit weaker than not wearing armor, it will make your tolerances to getting at or near max speed smaller, but the armor adds weight which should add damage too. I think most of what you are really noticing is getting better at the game. You can 2 shot things with any two hander, and I've done it with most good one handers too. Two good head shots will kill any zombie. I've only one shot with with bladed weapons though.

 

[NachoDawg]

I hope we can buy/order design specific cloth/armor. Like a tabbard with a particular emblem or something in particular colors

 

[Bullethead]

....
I think the biggest drawback to armor is that you reduce your damage output. if you are wearing max armor, there isn't any point in winding up for big swings.

I don't think armor really makes you hit weaker than not wearing armor, it will make your tolerances to getting at or near max speed smaller, but the armor adds weight which should add damage too. I think most of what you are really noticing is getting better at the game.
....

Interesting difference of opinion

I tend to agree more with Chip, although I can't rule out Greenbrog's observation that I'm also just getting better at the game. Still, my observations lead me to believe that adding "excessive" armor to the arms does decrease the speed at which the swing animations play out. It seems to take several layers for this effect to become significant so you're OK with 1 layer, maybe 2. But if you go much more than that, it's like how when you were a toddler and your mother mummified you in many layers before letting you go outside in the cold .

I have no idea how the game crunches numbers under the hood but I agree with Greenbrog that heavy armor on the arms SHOULD add momentum to the swing, something modern HEMA guys attest to. But OTOH, damage SHOULD be caused by energy, not momentum. Kinetic energy increases with the square of the velocity but with only 1/2 the mass. Thus, given a choice, it's better to be faster than heavier in terms of damage done, at least in real life, provided you're still talking apples to apples. For example, you have the same weapon and the same muscles moving it, the difference being how much armor is on your arms.

What I find more noticeable than swing speed changes, however, is "rate of fire" changes. This seems to come from "excessive" layers on the body. When you start getting 3 or more layers there, it seems to me that there's a significant delay between when you push the mouse button and the swing animation starting. Thus, by the time you actually do the swing, the enemy has recovered and closed the opening you were aiming at, and your attack gets blocked. Also, aborting an attack to parry has the same delay, so you get whacked more often even with the Fend ability, and this happens annoyingly often due to the delay in starting your previous attack.

 

[Alphanoobmeric]

Attack speed should be easy enough to test. Simply record in arena mode with the character doing a simple standing swing with and without armor. I'd probably let him finish doing the two swing animation so the speed difference is more noticeable if there is one. If it's not a noticeable difference then obviously armor doesn't currently affect it.

Same for movement. You can simply record the time it takes to cross the room.

Attack delay (time between mouse click and attack) will be a little harder to show. There is recording software that shows when the user does a mouse click, but I'm not certain which ones do so offhand. Though, I imagine this delay would translate to being in between attack combos. So, you could simply try to chain a succession of swings with the mouse click. If there is a difference you should be able to get at least a few more swings in during a set time.

I might try doing all these things when I get home and I'm not being hounded into being a social creature who pays attention to real living people.

 

[Bullethead]

I might try doing all these things when I get home and I'm not being hounded into being a social creature who pays attention to real living people.

Ah, great, a dedicated experimenter! Only by such things can we winnow fact from opinion. I look forward to your results.

 

[Alphanoobmeric]

The following tests were carried out with a male character of dead center physique, medium height, and young age.
Experiment 1: Swing Count (Game version 0.5.3.1)

Hypothesis: Wearing full plate will lower the number of swings one can do in a set amount of time.

Method: I set a timer to 30 seconds and then began said timer at the start of my first swing. The swings were merely done by holding down the mouse button with no movement for the entire duration. I did this at least twice fully armored (gambeson, tunic, chain, plate, etc. The whole kit from the Lucerne hammer knight) and twice completely nude.

Data:
2-handed sword (from expert arena enemy):

1. 24 swings ~ Nude
2. 24 swings ~ Nude
3. 24 swings ~ Full Armor
4. 24 swings ~ Full Armor

1-handed sword and shield (from enemy):

1. 28 swings ~ Nude
2. 28 swings ~ Nude
3. 28 swings ~ Full Armor
4. 28 swings ~ Full Armor

And so on. The hammer did 19 swings for the record. The results were similar and I'll save the space.

Conclusion: It appears that wearing armor has no effect on the speed of weapon swings. The swing rate was surprisingly consistent. Another method of clicking could perhaps be used. Instead of clicking and holding the entire duration one could click after each swing to perhaps produce different results. This then ends up being more about the delay after mouse click. I might go back and test this at some point as I had mentioned in my previous post. I will need to get recording software to properly gauge this, however.

Experiment 2: Movement Speed (Game Version 0.5.3.1)
Hypothesis: Wearing full armor will increase the time it takes to cross a room as opposed to without.

Method: I began by backing up the character to one of the walls. I then pressed a stopwatch and simultaneously pushed Shift+W. Once the character reached the opposite wall I stopped the stopwatch. I did this 3 times with and without armor. I repeated the same in combat mode, but without Shift.

Data:Running:

1. 4.01 ~ Armor
2. 4.08 ~ Nude
   
3. 4.16 ~ Nude
4. 4.16 ~ Armor
5. 4.21 ~ Armor
6. 4.22 ~ Nude

Combat Crabwalk:

1. 7.95 ~ Armor (Probably a mistiming on my part)
2. 8.52 ~ Armor
3. 8.67 ~ Nude
   
4. 8.70 ~ Nude
5. 8.78 ~ Armor
6. 8.88 ~ Nude

Conclusion: Again, it appears as though armor does not have an effect on movement speed. If it does, it's very small. The results show in face, quicker times with armor. However, I think that may be poor timing on my part and a larger sample size is needed. Still, certainly it seems to show there is not at least much difference.

 

[-Tim-]

The following tests were carried out with a male character of dead center physique, medium height, and young age.
Experiment 1: Swing Count (Game version 0.5.3.1)

Hypothesis: Wearing full plate will lower the number of swings one can do in a set amount of time.

Method: I set a timer to 30 seconds and then began said timer at the start of my first swing. The swings were merely done by holding down the mouse button with no movement for the entire duration. I did this at least twice fully armored (gambeson, tunic, chain, plate, etc. The whole kit from the Lucerne hammer knight) and twice completely nude.

Data:
2-handed sword (from expert arena enemy):

1. 24 swings ~ Nude
2. 24 swings ~ Nude
3. 24 swings ~ Full Armor
4. 24 swings ~ Full Armor

1-handed sword and shield (from enemy):

1. 28 swings ~ Nude
2. 28 swings ~ Nude
3. 28 swings ~ Full Armor
4. 28 swings ~ Full Armor

And so on. The hammer did 19 swings for the record. The results were similar and I'll save the space.

Conclusion: It appears that wearing armor has no effect on the speed of weapon swings. The swing rate was surprisingly consistent. Another method of clicking could perhaps be used. Instead of clicking and holding the entire duration one could click after each swing to perhaps produce different results. This then ends up being more about the delay after mouse click. I might go back and test this at some point as I had mentioned in my previous post. I will need to get recording software to properly gauge this, however.

Experiment 2: Movement Speed (Game Version 0.5.3.1)
Hypothesis: Wearing full armor will increase the time it takes to cross a room as opposed to without.

Method: I began by backing up the character to one of the walls. I then pressed a stopwatch and simultaneously pushed Shift+W. Once the character reached the opposite wall I stopped the stopwatch. I did this 3 times with and without armor. I repeated the same in combat mode, but without Shift.

Data:Running:

1. 4.01 ~ Armor
2. 4.08 ~ Nude
   
3. 4.16 ~ Nude
4. 4.16 ~ Armor
5. 4.21 ~ Armor
6. 4.22 ~ Nude

Combat Crabwalk:

1. 7.95 ~ Armor (Probably a mistiming on my part)
2. 8.52 ~ Armor
3. 8.67 ~ Nude
   
4. 8.70 ~ Nude
5. 8.78 ~ Armor
6. 8.88 ~ Nude

Conclusion: Again, it appears as though armor does not have an effect on movement speed. If it does, it's very small. The results show in face, quicker times with armor. However, I think that may be poor timing on my part and a larger sample size is needed. Still, certainly it seems to show there is not at least much difference.

Gorgeous!

 

[Anthony Obilor]

@Alphanoobmeric The thing is that in version 0.5.3.1 armor encumberance hasn't been added. Armor actually affects movement speed in the current beta, there are 3 levels of armor skill dedicated to allowing you move faster while wearing armor. I am not too sure on the swing speed as I have not ran any tests and the game changes things really subtly but you definitely move and react slower while wearing heavy armor.

 

[Bullethead]

The following tests were carried out with a male character of dead center physique, medium height, and young age.............

Bravo! Science! Yay! Thanks for taking the time. So, decrease in swing speed is illusory. Still need to check the delay between press and swing. But then, with a new version due in the near future, there's little incentive for further testing at the moment.