Some Suggestions While The Game Is Still In Development...

[shingouki]

I just saw the Pre Alpha Gameplay video, and I was pretty impressed with the direction the game is going in, however there are a number of things that bother me (most notably the animations) however I know that those will be changed over time.

HOWEVER, I want to try to intervene in your animation overhaul at (hopefully) the early stages, to prevent the game from becoming like every other medieval animation game.

I've done a lot of research on actual medieval fighting and there really is no game out there that emulates medieval combat animations properly. Even popular games like Chivalry: Medieval Warfare, War of the Roses, Dark Souls, etc, are still pretty far off the mark. Chivalry and WoTR use japanese sword fighting animations for example. Dark Souls probably comes closest to mixing gamey elements with actual medieval sword fighting elements, but even then it's still not AS true to life as it can be.

So I see your game as a great opportunity to utilize true to life swordfighting in a videogame. You guys already have a very realistic physics based fighting system and accurate collisions and weapon tracers...so I think realistic combat would be a perfect addition to the game.

I found a bunch of references you guys can potentially use for animations (if doing it by hand/hiring some sort of motion caputre down the line), and hopefully you can use it in your game. Gonna section them and place them below. Even if nothing else, I hope it gives some inspiration for true to life sword fighting animations being in a video game for once. Sword fighting is more than just swinging a metal stick into other person.

Longsword Fighting Videos:

Fast Paced Combat Example 1
Previous Techniques Explained
Fast Paced Combat Example 2
Longsword Techniques Slowed Down With Explanations


One Handed Sword Fighting Videos

Sword and Buckler
Sword and Shield and 1Handed Sword Fighting Explained in Details (very informative video)
1Handed Messer Combat
Sword and Shield Viking Combat

Halberd/Poleaxe Videos

Poleaxe Tutorial

Dagger Videos

Pretty much anything on this guy's channel
Dagger Techniques with Explanations

General Videos

Common Misconceptions about Swords 1
Common Misconceptions about Swords 2
Common Misconceptions about Swords 3

Again, my main point in these videos is to:
1) Give inspiration and references for how swordfighting is really done
2) To show general stances for different weapon styles, motions for attacking, and characteristic motions for each weapon style (For example longsword attacks and counters have a characteristic wrist turn pivot, where they spin the sword around using both hands after parrying a strike. Turning the force received, in a circle that goes back into the opponent.)
3) Give explanations of why each style is done, and how they are done.

Do with it what you will, but hopefully it helps your team get some ideas. Accurate sword fighting techniques are too scarce, and would breathe a lot of depth into the game. Hopefully you guys will consider it. Hope this helps!

 

[Empire²]

The utility vs. elegance discussion concerning melee combat is one that pops up a lot here.

It's a valid discussion too, given the engine and mechanics the game is praised for even in pre-alpha.

I am personally not on either side of this debate. While I simply adore melee combat throughout history, my passion for physics-driven games is just as strong. These two often clash, as many games don't implement physics in an incredibly dynamic and present way during their combat sequences. Those that do, however, have combat that is a lot less engaging and accurate.

A common misconception about medieval combat is that it's completely choreographed. Yes, knights were taught and trained in medieval warfare, and possessed the knowledge and the techniques used in what people teach about combat nowadays. However, another big part of combat are people that don't possess that prowess. In your typical castle siege, at least a quarter of the troops storming the walls or defending them were no more than peasants, dressed up in fancy clothes and given some sort of weapon for their own defence. These peasants literally swung, stabbed and hacked to their heart's content, without any proper idea behind their moves. This was also a problem for the average knight. When you face someone that holds themselves to honourable techniques and rules, taught in a fashion similar to yours, you know what to expect and you know your counter-moves. In a fight, however, against an enemy (and more often than not, multiple enemies) that fought with the premise of dying or living whatever it takes, many a knight would face a problem. Many things were expected. There are only so many ways to swing a sword, which makes parrying not much of an issue. But the standard ideas of the ideal distance kept between two combatants, their posture and more was not upheld by both sides in the case of a fight like that.

I would honestly, and I hope I'm not the only one, sacrifice (semi-)canned attacking animations for a more dynamic battle experience. You have to keep in mind that, after all, Sui Generis is an RPG, not a fighting game. Limiting the player to the respected rules and concepts of medieval combat will severely damage the experience they have playing, as well as force the developers to close a great number of doors, filled with opportunities, because of the fact that the player could not handle themselves in certain situations.

The combat, in its current state, looks chaotic. It makes Sui Generis look like a "swing & pray" kind of game, which it isn't. Behind the chaos, however, are certain patterns, perhaps invisible to a lot of people that do not know a lot about/interest themselves in combat in any way. The parrying is done with basic stances, true to the origin of the martial art they were taken from. However, medieval battles are no musketeer's duels. All honour and order is thrown out of the window when you, a mere peasant, face an imminent and violent death by a knight in shining plate armour running a steel longsword through your gullet.

 

[Elric von Rabenfels]

'Tis my turf, lad.
Tread carefully.



On a more serious note:
We do have several very long and in-depth threads about this and other topics related to it (What weapons were actually used and how, the effectiveness of armour etc.) which I "take care" of personally. It's always good to see like-minded people, and you can rest assured that I'm doing all I can to make part of your vision come true - alas, regarding specific fencing animations, that doesn't really work with the system SG is using. So we won't have a true to life representaton of medieval fencing manuals, but a very dynamic flow in melee. And while I might not endorse -all- of the videos you posted, almost all are quite good, and have been referenced by myself in a different thread already.

 

[Rod_Lightning]

inb4 Elri-

Oh..

 

[Omenov]

The utility vs. elegance discussion concerning melee combat is one that pops up a lot here.

It's a valid discussion too, given the engine and mechanics the game is praised for even in pre-alpha.

I am personally not on either side of this debate. While I simply adore melee combat throughout history, my passion for physics-driven games is just as strong. These two often clash, as many games don't implement physics in an incredibly dynamic and present way during their combat sequences. Those that do, however, have combat that is a lot less engaging and accurate.

A common misconception about medieval combat is that it's completely choreographed. Yes, knights were taught and trained in medieval warfare, and possessed the knowledge and the techniques used in what people teach about combat nowadays. However, another big part of combat are people that don't possess that prowess. In your typical castle siege, at least a quarter of the troops storming the walls or defending them were no more than peasants, dressed up in fancy clothes and given some sort of weapon for their own defence. These peasants literally swung, stabbed and hacked to their heart's content, without any proper idea behind their moves. This was also a problem for the average knight. When you face someone that holds themselves to honourable techniques and rules, taught in a fashion similar to yours, you know what to expect and you know your counter-moves. In a fight, however, against an enemy (and more often than not, multiple enemies) that fought with the premise of dying or living whatever it takes, many a knight would face a problem. Many things were expected. There are only so many ways to swing a sword, which makes parrying not much of an issue. But the standard ideas of the ideal distance kept between two combatants, their posture and more was not upheld by both sides in the case of a fight like that.

I would honestly, and I hope I'm not the only one, sacrifice (semi-)canned attacking animations for a more dynamic battle experience. You have to keep in mind that, after all, Sui Generis is an RPG, not a fighting game. Limiting the player to the respected rules and concepts of medieval combat will severely damage the experience they have playing, as well as force the developers to close a great number of doors, filled with opportunities, because of the fact that the player could not handle themselves in certain situations.

The combat, in its current state, looks chaotic. It makes Sui Generis look like a "swing & pray" kind of game, which it isn't. Behind the chaos, however, are certain patterns, perhaps invisible to a lot of people that do not know a lot about/interest themselves in combat in any way. The parrying is done with basic stances, true to the origin of the martial art they were taken from. However, medieval battles are no musketeer's duels. All honour and order is thrown out of the window when you, a mere peasant, face an imminent and violent death by a knight in shining plate armour running a steel longsword through your gullet.

Wow very well put and can't agree more.

 

[CountReiniardThe3]

I agree that the game can take a lot from your videos and the like. It would be nice to actually have in-game schools for learning, part of quests or even training, and even self taught techniques that can manifest themselves in your characters fighting. Organic growth of combat enhancing your characters animations and combat. While still maintaining that random organic feeling from the combat.

 

[Chris.J0621]

The utility vs. elegance discussion concerning melee combat is one that pops up a lot here.

It's a valid discussion too, given the engine and mechanics the game is praised for even in pre-alpha.

I am personally not on either side of this debate. While I simply adore melee combat throughout history, my passion for physics-driven games is just as strong. These two often clash, as many games don't implement physics in an incredibly dynamic and present way during their combat sequences. Those that do, however, have combat that is a lot less engaging and accurate.

A common misconception about medieval combat is that it's completely choreographed. Yes, knights were taught and trained in medieval warfare, and possessed the knowledge and the techniques used in what people teach about combat nowadays. However, another big part of combat are people that don't possess that prowess. In your typical castle siege, at least a quarter of the troops storming the walls or defending them were no more than peasants, dressed up in fancy clothes and given some sort of weapon for their own defence. These peasants literally swung, stabbed and hacked to their heart's content, without any proper idea behind their moves. This was also a problem for the average knight. When you face someone that holds themselves to honourable techniques and rules, taught in a fashion similar to yours, you know what to expect and you know your counter-moves. In a fight, however, against an enemy (and more often than not, multiple enemies) that fought with the premise of dying or living whatever it takes, many a knight would face a problem. Many things were expected. There are only so many ways to swing a sword, which makes parrying not much of an issue. But the standard ideas of the ideal distance kept between two combatants, their posture and more was not upheld by both sides in the case of a fight like that.

I would honestly, and I hope I'm not the only one, sacrifice (semi-)canned attacking animations for a more dynamic battle experience. You have to keep in mind that, after all, Sui Generis is an RPG, not a fighting game. Limiting the player to the respected rules and concepts of medieval combat will severely damage the experience they have playing, as well as force the developers to close a great number of doors, filled with opportunities, because of the fact that the player could not handle themselves in certain situations.

The combat, in its current state, looks chaotic. It makes Sui Generis look like a "swing & pray" kind of game, which it isn't. Behind the chaos, however, are certain patterns, perhaps invisible to a lot of people that do not know a lot about/interest themselves in combat in any way. The parrying is done with basic stances, true to the origin of the martial art they were taken from. However, medieval battles are no musketeer's duels. All honour and order is thrown out of the window when you, a mere peasant, face an imminent and violent death by a knight in shining plate armour running a steel longsword through your gullet.

"There are only so many ways to swing a sword..." ...until you strike/thrust/slash as fast as the guys in your example videos. Holy shit, they make the fights in my game look like shitfaced Irish bar brawlers after having knocked over 10 pints to the floor! xD
(I wasn't mocking your post, just saying that, while true, there are only so many ways to swing a sword, if you can swing, parry, and thrust as fast as those guys, under-trained peasants don't stand a chance. At least in my humble opinion.)

 

[Vold]

When someone creates a medieval combat game based on Oculus VR and Kinect maybe we will be able to expect something closer to those videos (techniques/counters). But, with WASD + mouse, it's just not possible, unless that they allow us to press a button to perform a counter move given certain parameters; which IMO would be pointless and boring.

Nevertheless, what I'd expect to see are different stances that allow us to swing in different angles to vary even more gameplay.