Item Durability and Repair

[fluffydino2000]

It's been discussed in passing but not properly so I figured I'd make the thread.

What are everyone's opinions on this mechanic? What is the best way to execute it? Repair Hammers, Smiths, Workbenches, ore requirements?

Also, what do you think is the best way for weapons to break? Should they depreciate in effectiveness over time, or should they just work until they break? Should you be able to repair a "broken" item or should you have to maintain it to avoid it being broken.

An idea I just had is that since most weapon stats are generated based off of the geometry of the model, maybe the model can actually be made less effective to simulate disrepair. My idea is that every time a force acts upon the weapon, it deforms slightly. After a while, blades would end up blunt and bent. I don't know enough about the effectiveness of other weapons (Elric step in) to talk about how there deformation would work.

Could this idea work? It should work in terms of the actual item requiring repairing, in that it would become less effective over time. But can it be easily implemented? Is it overly complex?

Discuss.

 

[Scarecrow]

I am one of those who have always found item durability to get tedious. I guess it comes down to personal preference on such things (like hunger, thirst, sleep etc.), but i for one really don't need it in the game. I wouldn't mind it that much though, its often not that hard to keep them repaired and effective. However, finding that your weapon is broken in the middle of your adventuring means that you have to stop, and find somewhere to repair it.

If its going to be in the game i hope its more like whats in Dark Souls. There is weapon durability there, but it's really easy to keep track of it, and most weapons have a lot of durability. You can even get a repair kit and repair powder to fix them yourself.

 

[Komuflage]

I would like some some advanced item durability than most games have.

A system were weapons gets deformed sounds really good. Don't really like it when a weapon works perfect down to 10% durability, and then become useless (Dark souls style)

Also, Imo, a broken weapon is broken (Depending on what type of weapon)
A Bow that gets cut in halves shouldn't be repairable. Same thing for a sword that gets to bent.

Unless we get player crafting, I'd say you must bring the weapon to a blacksmith to repair it for you.

so:
They should depreciate in effectiveness over time.
You should have to maintain it to avoid it being broken.
every time a force acts upon the weapon, it deforms slightly. After a while, blades would end up blunt and bent.

 

[Empire²]

I feel like I have to agree with Scarecrow here. Going into a dungeon with a sword and shield and having either of those (or even both) break would be horrible. You're not going to carry an extra sword and shield with you, because you'd be much slower.

What I thought would make sense is for metal weapons to lose their edge over time, and for shields to just give in a little more at each strike you take. An iron sword would have a base attack of 5 (Just making this up on the spot here), with a sharpness bonus of 5. As you get into fights and use it more and more, the sharpness bonus will slowly start lowering until it is no longer there. You'd have to go to a blacksmith to get your sword repaired.
For a shield, this would be a little bit different. Your shield starts off with a certain resistance when you get it, and it has a bonus for how unscathed it is. The more you use it, the more that bonus goes away, gnawing at your shield's resistance. This wouldn't eventually break it, but would make you stagger a lot more than you would with a fresh new shield.

As for breaking weapons, I would think wooden ones. If you try to hammer a fully armoured knight with a wooden staff, it will end up breaking. That doesn't matter that much, considering it's only wooden, and I assume it's too much to ask to have it snap in half and being able to use them as dual nightsticks.

In short:
Swords/Other sharp weapons lose their sharp edge and their blades and tips become dull, doing less damage to an opponent. You can visit a blacksmith to sharpen your weapons again.

Shields bend and deform to a point where you stagger more and more every time you block an incoming hit. You can visit a blacksmith to repair your shield.

Wooden Staffs snap off after prolonged use against enemies with heavy armour/shields etc. They could be repaired easily, but it's even easier to find a new one somewhere. Some poor housewife will have to find a new broomstick somewhere.

Bows would lose some of their strength after a while as well. Armour has a certain defense rating, and arrows have their piercing damage. Bows add on to piercing damage with a bonus which slowly lessens on usage. You'll have to visit a hunter to restring your bow.


I'd love to get into this a lot more deeply, but after all, these are only ideas/possibilities on what I think would be interesting to do on this subject. Of course, the opinions of others differ, and more importantly, game design has proven that every single aspect of a game needs to be in line with the others somehow. And, if you're not adding other in-depth mechanics like these, repairing your weapons is going to feel somewhat out of place.

 

[Komuflage]

Rwaat!

Well personally I think that weapons should still brake, and sure it would be annoying if it broke in the middle of a dungeon, but it's your responsibility to plan ahead. Then if you don't bring with you enough weapons, then that's your fault.

Also I prefer if mechanics that force you to stop adventuring every now and then exist. It feels more immersive, and the overall experience is much more memorable. It also ads a few hours to the game lengths.

Anyway if now weapons can't break entirely then your idea sounds extremely good, and intuitive.

 

[Parco]

i think weapons should be be duller over time as you use them, and the speed should depend on what you are using it on, if you hit a rock or hit the armored part of an enemy it becomes duller much faster than it would if you were hitting flesh or something else with little resistant. i also think weapons should break, but only if it received enough force.
even if a weapon becomes duller doesnt mean the durability will decrease, so you can use the weapon until its sharpiness is almost gone but the durability is is still at 215 of 250. but how easy the weapon becomes dull is dependent on the maximum durability the weapon is capable of aka the material its made of and the quality of the weapon.
the force required to break the weapon depends on the weapons current durability, so if it is at 50 durability it will brake if it parries/blocking a heavy 2 handed hammer one time too many.

 

[the0thMonkey]

Lots of good ideas here. I have two things to add:

1. I don't think swords should ever break (with the possible exception of rapiers if they are going to be implemented). Their damage should be reduced; either by lowering their stats in a realistic way, reshaping the model, or converting their damage to a more blunt form (essentially turning them into clubs). Shields should be able to break. Warband did a decent job of this. Shields had a short lifespan, often breaking in one encounter unless they were of higher quality or heavier material.

2. Whatever system is chosen, the feedback must be good. For example, look at Oblivion. It featured weapons that degraded with use but there was no feedback until the weapon broke. After realizing that an encounter seemed to be taking longer than usual, I checked my weapons stats and my sword was performing at a tiny fraction of its initial value. Minecraft has a simple but effective feedback mechanism. I'm not saying it should be repeated in SG but it certainly fit well in Minecraft. In response to Komuflage's posts, I'm all for mechanics that make you take a break from adventuring as long as they do not become tedious. Oblivion's weapon repair mechanic was tedious which is why I used magic a lot. Eating mods in Skyrim (typically featuring a similar mechanic to weapon degradation) also became tedious after a short time and came nowhere near to realizing their potential. The implementation of whatever system BME chooses is key.

 

[Komuflage]

We need Elric for this, were is that knight anyways?
Anyways if someone else have knowledge in the subject of medieval weapons, what kind of weapons can truly break?
Wooden ones ofc, katanas and rapiers. But a normal Longsword. Is it realistic that a sword in really bad shape can break? Or will it just become dull and "carve" into itself?

 

[the0thMonkey]

We need Elric for this, were is that knight anyways?
Anyways if someone else have knowledge in the subject of medieval weapons, what kind of weapons can truly break?
Wooden ones ofc, katanas and rapiers. But a normal Longsword. Is it realistic that a sword in really bad shape can break? Or will it just become dull and "carve" into itself?

We definitely need an expert opinion on this. I hadn't thought about it earlier, but what about weapon quality? A sword made from a cheap metal would be filled with flaws and, regardless of the type of sword, could be breakable. I think some weapons actually specialize in breaking your opponents sword. Similarly, monster attacks are something that real medieval swords don't need to contend with.

 

[Empire²]

We need Elric for this, were is that knight anyways?
Anyways if someone else have knowledge in the subject of medieval weapons, what kind of weapons can truly break?
Wooden ones ofc, katanas and rapiers. But a normal Longsword. Is it realistic that a sword in really bad shape can break? Or will it just become dull and "carve" into itself?

Well, actually, katanas don't really break that quickly. Not as quickly as a rapier would, anyways. I mean, trying to use it as a shield when a wooden club the size of a grown man comes flying down is probably not a great idea, but it's strong enough to become dull and bend rather than break.
Trust me, I bought one online. By the rights of the internet, that makes me an expert XD

Seriously though, I would love to run into a bandit that's carrying a staff, give a few swings with a sword and just have it crack in two as I deliver a magnificent overhead swing.

About the longswords:
I think, in a fight between two humans, it's pretty rare that a regular longsword breaks. It'll become dull and might get chipped, but breaking would require some sort of special weapon. Maybe if you were trying to parry blows from a warhammer and got really unlucky, it would hit right on the blade a few times, making it more brittle and allowing it to break easier. In a sword vs. sword duel though, it'd most likely never break unless you got it at Ye Olde Walmart.

I'm by no means an expert on medieval combat, but I do consider myself a melee combat enthusiast. What I think the problem will be, is that a lot of games have executions; "cutscenes" within a fight where you finish off an opponent with a counter attack. The weapons are often choreographed in motion capture/animation to collide in a way where, for example, one catches the edge of another, allowing for a motion that gives you open area for a finishing blow. There is no way the combat in any physics based game without canned animations will be accurate enough to support that kind of angular control and collision without messing up in some way.

At the moment we've only seen the free-form aspect of fighting. There's been no duels like you would see in Game Of Thrones or Lord of The Rings, but rather people swinging, poking and hacking away at eachother, with limbs colliding and causing attack trajectories to differ from their origin.

 

[Scarecrow]

Well, actually, katanas don't really break that quickly. Not as quickly as a rapier would, anyways. I mean, trying to use it as a shield when a wooden club the size of a grown man comes flying down is probably not a great idea, but it's strong enough to become dull and bend rather than break.
Trust me, I bought one online. By the rights of the internet, that makes me an expert XD

Seriously though, I would love to run into a bandit that's carrying a staff, give a few swings with a sword and just have it crack in two as I deliver a magnificent overhead swing.

About the longswords:
I think, in a fight between two humans, it's pretty rare that a regular longsword breaks. It'll become dull and might get chipped, but breaking would require some sort of special weapon. Maybe if you were trying to parry blows from a warhammer and got really unlucky, it would hit right on the blade a few times, making it more brittle and allowing it to break easier. In a sword vs. sword duel though, it'd most likely never break unless you got it at Ye Olde Walmart.

I'm by no means an expert on medieval combat, but I do consider myself a melee combat enthusiast. What I think the problem will be, is that a lot of games have executions; "cutscenes" within a fight where you finish off an opponent with a counter attack. The weapons are often choreographed in motion capture/animation to collide in a way where, for example, one catches the edge of another, allowing for a motion that gives you open area for a finishing blow. There is no way the combat in any physics based game without canned animations will be accurate enough to support that kind of angular control and collision without messing up in some way.

At the moment we've only seen the free-form aspect of fighting. There's been no duels like you would see in Game Of Thrones or Lord of The Rings, but rather people swinging, poking and hacking away at eachother, with limbs colliding and causing attack trajectories to differ from their origin.

Ok, i second that cracking right through an enemies spear or staff would be pretty darn cool.
I agree with that i don't think longswords breaks easily at all. Compared to say, a Katana which is rather "stiff" (in a lack of better words), a longsword is quite bendable when compared and thus it wont break as easily. Perhaps this was the case with most European swords, that they often were quite bendable, exactly for the purpose of not suddenly breaking.
Again though, im in no way an expert on this matter. We need Elric on the case!

 

[Empire²]

Compared to say, a Katana which is rather "stiff" (in a lack of better words), a longsword is quite bendable when compared and thus it wont break as easily. Perhaps this was the case with most European swords, that they often were quite bendable, exactly for the purpose of not suddenly breaking.

Yes, that is very true, the european longsword is known to be able to bend, however, so is the katana.

I couldn't find a very good video, but here's a decent one that showcases both the katana and the longsword.

I suggest you skip to the part where they cut the ice. That's where you start to see how much both swords bend, and after that comes different types of armour which is interesting on its own!

EDIT: Just to be clear, that video isn't the greatest nor the most fair of comparisons, but it shows off the flexibility of the blades as well as its impact on leather and iron armour.

 

[Scarecrow]

Yea, definitely didn't mean that the katana doesn't bend at all, that would be silly. However, when compared to the longsword, it doesn't bend as much.
Btw I think Elric stated somewhere that there is so much wrong with that video he didn't even know where to begin. Like how he actually cuts differently with the katana and the longsword when striking the leather armor. That is just facepalm worthy.

 

[Empire²]

Yeah, like I said, the entire comparison is pretty much invalidated by the difference in techniques used. I just remembered that you could see the both of them bending as much as they do and decided to link that one.

 

[ZaratanCho]

When you have hight skill it should take way longer to damage your weapon though, any kind of weapon. And in combat you usually avoid weapon to weapon hits as much as possible and aim for the body and weak spots. There are alot of different weapons and different in there own class and fighting styles so it is hard to generalize how weapons should deteriorate as a whole.

 

[Empire²]

When you have hight skill it should take way longer to damage your weapon though, any kind of weapon. And in combat you usually avoid weapon to weapon hits as much as possible and aim for the body and weak spots. There are alot of different weapons and different in there own class and fighting styles so it is hard to generalize how weapons should deteriorate as a whole.

Well, that depends on the weapon you use. I mean, weapon to weapon hits are inevitable if you don't have a shield. Parrying blows is a must, considering you'll never be able to evade every blow by strafing around like a ballet dancer (unfortunately ).

As for the different fighting styles and classes, that is a good thing to keep in mind when implementing a mechanic like durability. I mean, having a two-handed maul lose damage value because of a lot of parrying with it doesn't make sense. What would, though, if you take away the context, is hitting it on a solid surface like a wall or a stone table. Of course, we won't be fighting these inanimate objects (I hope), but enemies can dodge at the last moment as your hammer comes down, making you smash the hammer into a stone platform. It wouldn't go a full 90 degrees of course, but a slightly bent maul (say, 15 degrees at most), adds an incredible sense of realism.


I had a similar idea for arrows. If you kill an enemy from afar with a bow, you can of course reclaim your arrows from the body of the enemy you killed. However, some arrows, let's say one you shot in his back, will snap and become useless if he staggers and lands right on his back.

 

[Komuflage]

Well, that depends on the weapon you use. I mean, weapon to weapon hits are inevitable if you don't have a shield. Parrying blows is a must, considering you'll never be able to evade every blow by strafing around like a ballet dancer (unfortunately ).

As for the different fighting styles and classes, that is a good thing to keep in mind when implementing a mechanic like durability. I mean, having a two-handed maul lose damage value because of a lot of parrying with it doesn't make sense. What would, though, if you take away the context, is hitting it on a solid surface like a wall or a stone table. Of course, we won't be fighting these inanimate objects (I hope), but enemies can dodge at the last moment as your hammer comes down, making you smash the hammer into a stone platform. It wouldn't go a full 90 degrees of course, but a slightly bent maul (say, 15 degrees at most), adds an incredible sense of realism.


I had a similar idea for arrows. If you kill an enemy from afar with a bow, you can of course reclaim your arrows from the body of the enemy you killed. However, some arrows, let's say one you shot in his back, will snap and become useless if he staggers and lands right on his back.

Going of topic (Since that never happens) Does anyone know a game with a system like this? It really sounds awesome, and I would like to see if any game have pulled of a mechanic like this.

 

[fluffydino2000]

This is why I think dynamic deformation would be so great. I don't know how feasible this is at all, I know very little about programming (especially advanced physics). But, if it were achievable, I don't think we'd even need to discuss which weapons should and should not break, it should just work out being accurate (provided information about materials was accurate). You also get that kind of attachment to your weapon. The slightly bent war- hammer that helped you defeat three thaumaturges.

I think one issue with this might be the severing of objects. Will the game be able to simulate objects actually severing and will the AI be able to perceive them properly? That would be a bigger feat than just the physical deformation simulation I think.

 

[Komuflage]

This is why I think dynamic deformation would be so great. I don't know how feasible this is at all, I know very little about programming (especially advanced physics). But, if it were achievable, I don't think we'd even need to discuss which weapons should and should not break, it should just work out being accurate (provided information about materials was accurate). You also get that kind of attachment to your weapon. The slightly bent war- hammer that helped you defeat three thaumaturges.

I think one issue with this might be the severing of objects. Will the game be able to simulate objects actually severing and will the AI be able to perceive them properly? That would be a bigger feat than just the physical deformation simulation I think.

Having a system like this that works fully dynamic might be difficult to achieve. But even if it works of some formulas behind the scene. It would still be a better and more immersive system than:
Weapon works perfect until 10%durability, now weapon only deal 20% damage. As it's in most games. Souls games as an example.

 

[ZaratanCho]

About "evading"(so many ways to avoid an attack), it so hugely depends on personal skill level and many things. One vs one or bigger battle makes things vary alot. As things can't be too percise in the game parry will probably be used alot(less so after you grow maybe), but I hope when you are skilled enough taking out opponets with lower skill level can happen very quickly. A skilled fighter fighting a stupid thug/bandit could easily end in seconds(there is always some risk of course).

I want to see how combat has evolved in the new video to get a better idea of some things. ;D

For such mechanics as breaking/repair I think it should be made very in dept or relatively simple, no middle of the road. Who knows what will happen eventually. ;D