CalenLoki
Member
Greetings.
I've spent quite some time playing both arena, and while mechanics are lovely (especially "grappling" with 2h sword and throwing enemies on the ground xD) the controls are really holding it back. I find myself fighting with controls is much harder than fighting enemies. Mostly - movement and camera controls. I've played stable version 6.0.3, so if anything got already fixed in beta 6.1.x then let me know.
I know some people have vision that "what we have is the best, and any change is for worse", thus all the suggestions here are for OPTIONS. It's early access, and the point is to test which one works - instead of asking devs to change it every update, it'd be great to change it until it fits our needs. Then through survey, the most popular setting could be set as default option could be set
I'll start with camera - right now we have a lot of buttons to control it (MMB, space, scroll), but all of them interrupt combat flow in some way. Personally I'd rather have camera follow the cursor - but not strict (like holding space). I'd like two sliders - first for angle deviation before camera starts turning towards cursor at 1% speed, and second that sets angle deviation at which camera turns at 100% speed.
Now all options are possible:
- set first to 180+ and it will never follow
- set both to 0 and it works like holding space
- set first to 0 and second to 789 and it will very slowly rotate towards cursor
- set first to 45 and second to 90 and camera won't swivel when you do minor adjustments, but also won't leave you facing at camera
- first 30 second 30 - freedom within small angle, but then instant turn
Second thing is zoom. I have quite small screen, so full zoom-out hides all sweet details (and show a lot of completely unneeded area behind me), while full zoom-in (which could be even closer IMO) leaves me with very small area. My suggestion here is to make camera centre follow cursor, or more precisely point between character and cursor. And again sliders: one to it either closer to char or cursor, and other to set how fast it adjust, instantly or fluently.
All the current keys would work of course, but personally I'd use only free-look to see my sexy outfit from various angles.
Now the movement - I think that both combat and non-combat should be closer to each other, with less buttons for more functions.
Out of combat first - we have two ways to move forward (RMB and W), two way to turn (RMB follow cursor and A/D) and two ways to run (LMB cursor far from char and shift). At the same time there is no way to move diagonally to avoid obstacle without either using A/D with precision of heavy tank or RMB. So I suggest (OPTION, as always) that char follow cursor (without any sliders this time) while A/D are for strafing. You think it's gamey? Well, then you never really walked through cloggedbasement/attic/warehouse dungeon. It's more natural movement than walking back. Also - we have RMB free for something else.
Now combat - it would be nice if we could choose the difference between "tap" and "hold" of movement keys. Because animation starts with some delay, I find myself tapping it until I see my char reacting. But game thinks I'm holding it, so it ALWAYS do the double-step, even if I ask for something else well before first step got executed. It just feel not responsive enough. Also, with more responsive controls regarding single/double step, you could remove the hard-cap and allow as-many-steps-as-you-like by holding controls long enough.
Second concern is "normal" movement during combat. I play by killing everything that moves, and that everything often run away from me (I'm better at long defensive fights rather than quick finishing). Then the only way to run is by RMB method (which I dislike for taking RMB and preventing attacking). IMO shift, mostly unused in combat, should switch to non-combat running mode, but with ability to swing. Right now it's not possible to attack someone who run away, because as soon as we start attacking we stop running and he get out of range. Think of it as charge - which thrue bahrbarian would stop in front of his enemy before swinging his mighty choppa?
And last one about weapon handling this time, very small change. ATM left to right swing require you to reach as far as 45 degree left from your character. It make little sense for weapons that idle on the right side (all 1h and 2h swords) but is absolutely counter-intuitive for weapons that point left by default (polearms). IMO for simplicity ltr and rtl should be always equal. So just clicking in front will give you random attack, but even slight movement to left or right will determine the direction.
I could start here with click-and-draw-direction (which also allows control over vertical angle and strength of blow) as alternative to move-and-click that we have currently, but let's keep it simple for now.
Thanks for reading.
EDIT: Some more thoughts.
I don't like double clicking. Perhaps we could map overhead to something else? Mouses have more than 2 buttons these days. Still inferior to mouse-gestures, but a least some improvement, and require almost no coding.
There should be option for combat-interaction via single keypress, rather than combination of two (ctrl+LMB by default). Again, 5 mouse buttons (7 if we include scroll down/up) are there for a reason.
Another alternative to auto-aligning camera to cursor - my main problem is when character is facing down, and pressing "go left" moves him right on the screen. So maybe option to align movement orders to screen, rather than cursor. The key could be called "move towards top of the screen" rather than "move forward". Well proven in all top down games.
ANOTHER EDIT: Yet more thoughts.
This time I though about arm controls. I'm big proponent of two basic rules:
1. in/out combat shouldn't be very different in terms of controls
2. keyboard - body, mouse - arms. With maybe few keys to alternate mouse buttons - for those who have just LMB-RMB-Scroll.
ad 2. We have several things we do with arms in game, and we'll have a lot more in the future.
Current are: swing, overhead, stab, grab (use).
Possible in the future: push, offhand attack, thaumaturgy (with gods know how many keys), weapon mode swap (sometimes with more than two options), weapon swap/quick-use (just 2 weapon sets confirmed, but maybe there'll be more), drop/throw.
As you can see, if we give each of those separate key, it'll take half of the keyboard - kind of Arma way, where you have separate controls for sniffing, splitting and eating pudding.
Thus IMO the better way would be mapping all those to three main keys (and three not that often used ones), and their logical combinations - all that accompanied with drawing gestures. Those keys would be:
- main-hand: handles attacks, using M&B like direction choice. Obviously perspective is not close third person, so character-to-cursor is used as bottom-to-top.
- off-hand: does the same, just for the other hand. Obviously, actions would be wastly different for non-weapon items (shield-bash) or for two-handed weapons (pommel strike or back-end strike with pole arms)
- main+off: shove - to create distance, or to push enemy at somewhere (so he tip over banana peel, impale on some spike or fall into endless pit of doom).
- use: if you click on object, it will be picked using free hand (or mainhand, if both hands hold something and the object can be grabbed with just two fingers while holding sword - i.e. door handle). ATM we have telekinesis, but I believe that we'll get proper physical picking animation in the future (and throwing, by dragging fast than releasing item)
- use+main or off: if you're not holding any object, you'll use radial menu to choose item from your belt or back, or if you click on object that lays on the ground you'd pick it up and use. If you do hold something, you'll be additionally able to drop it (left and right quarters of radial menu), sheathe it (if you choose proper empty space on the radial menu), quickly drop and take something else (if you select other item without sheathing first), or swap hands (use+main+off). If you have item, and do "up then down" gesture then release both buttons, you throw the item forward.
- weapon mode swap (up and down): preferably scroll wheel. Change between short and long grip for polarms, normal/halfsword/mordehau with 2h swords, overgrip/undergrip for 1h spears and knives, ect. If you press "up" while already being in longer grip or "down" while being in shortest, it will swap between blade and blunt side for axes, ect. Weapon swap+offhand change grip for off-hand items.
- thaumaturgy - we know very little about it, but probably radial menu for choosing effects.
With 4+scroll mouse (that is quite common) all those could be mapped without keyboard. With simpler mouses, just one (thaumaturgy?) need to be on keyboard.
ad 1. Because described combat hand controls handle everything you would possible like to do outside combat (including equipping weapons and armours, accessing chests and maybe backpacks/pouches, ect), I don't see reason to make the other scheme much different. The difference is ofc in movement animation and some game mechanics (lower on legs, more rapid steps, weapons auto blocking, inability to change clothes and access inventory, ect).
A bit more on movement control, as someone mentioned all the different movement modes we have: walk, combat movement (leaps), run, sprint; and how to achieve them without RMB. IMO space could work great for that. Simply WASD would mean walk, WASD+space is leap, WASD+shift=run, WASD+space+shift=sprint. And camera, as less important, could be handled with alt (or automatically).
I've spent quite some time playing both arena, and while mechanics are lovely (especially "grappling" with 2h sword and throwing enemies on the ground xD) the controls are really holding it back. I find myself fighting with controls is much harder than fighting enemies. Mostly - movement and camera controls. I've played stable version 6.0.3, so if anything got already fixed in beta 6.1.x then let me know.
I know some people have vision that "what we have is the best, and any change is for worse", thus all the suggestions here are for OPTIONS. It's early access, and the point is to test which one works - instead of asking devs to change it every update, it'd be great to change it until it fits our needs. Then through survey, the most popular setting could be set as default option could be set
I'll start with camera - right now we have a lot of buttons to control it (MMB, space, scroll), but all of them interrupt combat flow in some way. Personally I'd rather have camera follow the cursor - but not strict (like holding space). I'd like two sliders - first for angle deviation before camera starts turning towards cursor at 1% speed, and second that sets angle deviation at which camera turns at 100% speed.
Now all options are possible:
- set first to 180+ and it will never follow
- set both to 0 and it works like holding space
- set first to 0 and second to 789 and it will very slowly rotate towards cursor
- set first to 45 and second to 90 and camera won't swivel when you do minor adjustments, but also won't leave you facing at camera
- first 30 second 30 - freedom within small angle, but then instant turn
Second thing is zoom. I have quite small screen, so full zoom-out hides all sweet details (and show a lot of completely unneeded area behind me), while full zoom-in (which could be even closer IMO) leaves me with very small area. My suggestion here is to make camera centre follow cursor, or more precisely point between character and cursor. And again sliders: one to it either closer to char or cursor, and other to set how fast it adjust, instantly or fluently.
All the current keys would work of course, but personally I'd use only free-look to see my sexy outfit from various angles.
Now the movement - I think that both combat and non-combat should be closer to each other, with less buttons for more functions.
Out of combat first - we have two ways to move forward (RMB and W), two way to turn (RMB follow cursor and A/D) and two ways to run (LMB cursor far from char and shift). At the same time there is no way to move diagonally to avoid obstacle without either using A/D with precision of heavy tank or RMB. So I suggest (OPTION, as always) that char follow cursor (without any sliders this time) while A/D are for strafing. You think it's gamey? Well, then you never really walked through clogged
Now combat - it would be nice if we could choose the difference between "tap" and "hold" of movement keys. Because animation starts with some delay, I find myself tapping it until I see my char reacting. But game thinks I'm holding it, so it ALWAYS do the double-step, even if I ask for something else well before first step got executed. It just feel not responsive enough. Also, with more responsive controls regarding single/double step, you could remove the hard-cap and allow as-many-steps-as-you-like by holding controls long enough.
Second concern is "normal" movement during combat. I play by killing everything that moves, and that everything often run away from me (I'm better at long defensive fights rather than quick finishing). Then the only way to run is by RMB method (which I dislike for taking RMB and preventing attacking). IMO shift, mostly unused in combat, should switch to non-combat running mode, but with ability to swing. Right now it's not possible to attack someone who run away, because as soon as we start attacking we stop running and he get out of range. Think of it as charge - which thrue bahrbarian would stop in front of his enemy before swinging his mighty choppa?
And last one about weapon handling this time, very small change. ATM left to right swing require you to reach as far as 45 degree left from your character. It make little sense for weapons that idle on the right side (all 1h and 2h swords) but is absolutely counter-intuitive for weapons that point left by default (polearms). IMO for simplicity ltr and rtl should be always equal. So just clicking in front will give you random attack, but even slight movement to left or right will determine the direction.
I could start here with click-and-draw-direction (which also allows control over vertical angle and strength of blow) as alternative to move-and-click that we have currently, but let's keep it simple for now.
Thanks for reading.
EDIT: Some more thoughts.
I don't like double clicking. Perhaps we could map overhead to something else? Mouses have more than 2 buttons these days. Still inferior to mouse-gestures, but a least some improvement, and require almost no coding.
There should be option for combat-interaction via single keypress, rather than combination of two (ctrl+LMB by default). Again, 5 mouse buttons (7 if we include scroll down/up) are there for a reason.
Another alternative to auto-aligning camera to cursor - my main problem is when character is facing down, and pressing "go left" moves him right on the screen. So maybe option to align movement orders to screen, rather than cursor. The key could be called "move towards top of the screen" rather than "move forward". Well proven in all top down games.
ANOTHER EDIT: Yet more thoughts.
This time I though about arm controls. I'm big proponent of two basic rules:
1. in/out combat shouldn't be very different in terms of controls
2. keyboard - body, mouse - arms. With maybe few keys to alternate mouse buttons - for those who have just LMB-RMB-Scroll.
ad 2. We have several things we do with arms in game, and we'll have a lot more in the future.
Current are: swing, overhead, stab, grab (use).
Possible in the future: push, offhand attack, thaumaturgy (with gods know how many keys), weapon mode swap (sometimes with more than two options), weapon swap/quick-use (just 2 weapon sets confirmed, but maybe there'll be more), drop/throw.
As you can see, if we give each of those separate key, it'll take half of the keyboard - kind of Arma way, where you have separate controls for sniffing, splitting and eating pudding.
Thus IMO the better way would be mapping all those to three main keys (and three not that often used ones), and their logical combinations - all that accompanied with drawing gestures. Those keys would be:
- main-hand: handles attacks, using M&B like direction choice. Obviously perspective is not close third person, so character-to-cursor is used as bottom-to-top.
- off-hand: does the same, just for the other hand. Obviously, actions would be wastly different for non-weapon items (shield-bash) or for two-handed weapons (pommel strike or back-end strike with pole arms)
- main+off: shove - to create distance, or to push enemy at somewhere (so he tip over banana peel, impale on some spike or fall into endless pit of doom).
- use: if you click on object, it will be picked using free hand (or mainhand, if both hands hold something and the object can be grabbed with just two fingers while holding sword - i.e. door handle). ATM we have telekinesis, but I believe that we'll get proper physical picking animation in the future (and throwing, by dragging fast than releasing item)
- use+main or off: if you're not holding any object, you'll use radial menu to choose item from your belt or back, or if you click on object that lays on the ground you'd pick it up and use. If you do hold something, you'll be additionally able to drop it (left and right quarters of radial menu), sheathe it (if you choose proper empty space on the radial menu), quickly drop and take something else (if you select other item without sheathing first), or swap hands (use+main+off). If you have item, and do "up then down" gesture then release both buttons, you throw the item forward.
- weapon mode swap (up and down): preferably scroll wheel. Change between short and long grip for polarms, normal/halfsword/mordehau with 2h swords, overgrip/undergrip for 1h spears and knives, ect. If you press "up" while already being in longer grip or "down" while being in shortest, it will swap between blade and blunt side for axes, ect. Weapon swap+offhand change grip for off-hand items.
- thaumaturgy - we know very little about it, but probably radial menu for choosing effects.
With 4+scroll mouse (that is quite common) all those could be mapped without keyboard. With simpler mouses, just one (thaumaturgy?) need to be on keyboard.
ad 1. Because described combat hand controls handle everything you would possible like to do outside combat (including equipping weapons and armours, accessing chests and maybe backpacks/pouches, ect), I don't see reason to make the other scheme much different. The difference is ofc in movement animation and some game mechanics (lower on legs, more rapid steps, weapons auto blocking, inability to change clothes and access inventory, ect).
A bit more on movement control, as someone mentioned all the different movement modes we have: walk, combat movement (leaps), run, sprint; and how to achieve them without RMB. IMO space could work great for that. Simply WASD would mean walk, WASD+space is leap, WASD+shift=run, WASD+space+shift=sprint. And camera, as less important, could be handled with alt (or automatically).
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