Poverty

[Cooper Holt]

I'm not sure if this has been discussed before, so I made a thread for it.
If I remember correctly, the devs have mentioned that money will be pretty hard to come by most of the time, and that player housing will be in SG. These go hand in hand with the poverty issue. Of course, you won't need to worry about food supply, but perhaps heating your house and other various things will require at least some money.
Input? Suggestions? Comments? Anyone?

 

[Parco]

the furniture and decoration might cost something, maybe you can also trade other stuff than money for those things, a chunk of meet for a chair for example. and maybe you cant afford a whole house so you have to rent it and pay monthly/weekly/daily, and again maybe money is not the only payment option.
heating would require wood or charcoal and that you might need to buy, or go out and collect it yourself.

 

[Parco]

its hard to say how rich/poor npc's will be in the world of SG, my guess would be the common farmer would normally have just a few pieces of coins of the lowest value and have to trade the stuff he makes from the farm (or other jobs he might have) and trade that for other stuff he needs, i guess it will be same for the player, if you want a new sword from the blacksmith i guess paying with gold/money is out of the question most of the time.

 

[Komuflage]

Having to get furniture to decorate your house seems fun imo.
However, having to pay rent, or heat the house up is not a good idea imo. Since houses most likely wont serve a real purpose, I think that it won't be worth bothering with getting wood/coal to heat it up, and most people would just not buy a house.

 

[Parco]

agree on the heating. buying a whole house still wouldnt be cheap, so either you start with one or you gotta buy later. if there is a possibility to choose between different houses then maybe the cheapest one you can buy is a wooden shack, those might not be so expensive.
thats why i thought about renting, i was thinking it might be a nice way for players to get decent good looking houses early-mid game, but to make it risky to rent then maybe if you cant pay on time the landlord will lock the doors and sell all your belongings or toss them out where they can get stolen, so if you do rent then you kinda forcing yourself to stop by the place now and then and take a break from adventuring.

 

[Zervostyrd]

i guess it will be same for the player, if you want a new sword from the blacksmith i guess paying with gold/money is out of the question most of the time.

I can sort off see how you'll be able to trade stuff to get another, like you sell 2 swords, the game works out their value and you take your pick on the items you'd like to have. I.E. 2 swords worth 130 gold coins sells against 1 woodsmans axe and 20 arrows worth 130 gold coins.

But IMO the it's alot easier for everyone if the game always work out a figure in the currency. And paying with gold is always fine (always been fine as long as there ever been a regional, unified, currency (we're talking 100s of years B.C.).

On the other hand getting payed in "normal" currency is another story, because off assets are usually locked in stuff. And add to that the fact that a Farmer doesn't really need a lot of common currency in the medieval ages since he can supply his basic needs with work and trading.

But that said it's certainly not that smart carrying around on a lot of loose currency in a world filled with greedy and ruthless people if you are yourself a "nobody". Being a highly respected land lord with 30 men in entourage though, you won't have to worry about some lowlife cut-throat rising up from the dirt and demanding cash.

You know I do ramble alot, but my point is, paying in "standard" currency is always going to be fine, being payed however in standard currency isn't always. And to represent poverty, maybe some people simply can't reward you with anything physical of value at all. (They can still do you favors, vouch for you, and give your repitation a boost, etc..)

 

[Empire²]

I think it's way better to have currency aplenty. I mean, if there's a blacksmith in a small fishing village, he won't have much gold, that much is clear. But he also won't have weapons of the same quality as a blacksmith in a city or big town. With the knowledge that items weigh you down, I think asking people to trade off their dearest belongings for a new bear rug goes a bit too far.

One of the things I really liked about Skyrim was exploring the region around a town, clearing out and looting bandit caves, hunting animals and gathering all sorts of minerals, then going back to town and selling those to an NPC. With the promise of dynamic NPCs though, this system could be improved. A blacksmith will offer more for your iron ingots than he will for a rare book you found. When you sell a lot of things in Skyrim, the NPC runs out of money. How about, when an NPC has very little money, he'll trade something else for the item you're selling.

You have a spare iron helmet worth 100 gold. The Blacksmith only has 50. To compensate for the price of the helmet, he will offer you different items depending on the gap in value and the gold he carries.

 

[Cooper Holt]

With the knowledge that items weigh you down, I think asking people to trade off their dearest belongings for a new bear rug goes a bit too far.

One of the things I really liked about Skyrim was exploring the region around a town, clearing out and looting bandit caves, hunting animals and gathering all sorts of minerals, then going back to town and selling those to an NPC. With the promise of dynamic NPCs though, this system could be improved. A blacksmith will offer more for your iron ingots than he will for a rare book you found. When you sell a lot of things in Skyrim, the NPC runs out of money. How about, when an NPC has very little money, he'll trade something else for the item you're selling.

You have a spare iron helmet worth 100 gold. The Blacksmith only has 50. To compensate for the price of the helmet, he will offer you different items depending on the gap in value and the gold he carries.

Or, perhaps, he won't accept the deal because an iron helmet isn't a very good item, and he could use his money on other things.

 

[Empire²]

Or, perhaps, he won't accept the deal because an iron helmet isn't a very good item, and he could use his money on other things.

Exactly. If the blacksmith himself sells steel armour and weaponry, he won't think to buy an inferior item off of you.

 

[Zervostyrd]

Exactly. If the blacksmith himself sells steel armour and weaponry, he won't think to buy an inferior item off of you.

OR he will offer you a very bad deal... Like IF I must be rid of this helmet, he is willing to pay me 10 gold even though it's worth 100 gold . OR even better! The smith says "This isn't in line with my quality guarantee, but maybe [name] in the general store over there might buy it off you".

 

[Empire²]

OR he will offer you a very bad deal... Like IF I must be rid of this helmet, he is willing to pay me 10 gold even though it's worth 100 gold . OR even better! The smith says "This isn't in line with my quality guarantee, but maybe [name] in the general store over there might buy it off you".

Or he goes mad and morphs into a diabolic ghoul that tries to eat your face off!

 

[Zervostyrd]

Plausible, We've all been there (at least the second before the morphing)

 

[tiny lampe]

Or, perhaps, he won't accept the deal because an iron helmet isn't a very good item, and he could use his money on other things.

I completely agree with this.

Take a game like Skyrim. Merchants sell and buy gear. Buying from them is suboptimal because by exploring you can find items that are at least as good and for free. Selling to them is ideal because they will buy anything you present to them. This fact combined with the player's capacity to carry huge amounts of items encourages a playstyle oriented towards looting everything (even if it's useless to you) because it can be turned into coin later on.

In my opinion, the system above is terrible. Merchants shouldn't be glorified junk collectors; their job is to sell you stuff and make a living out of it, not the other way around. Therefore, they should only buy one of your items if that's profitable for them. Example: you bring an axe of exotic design to a merchant. The axe is useless to you because you are a sword user. The merchant knows that a rich man from a nearby town is a weapon collector that loves exotic weapons. Therefore, he decides to buy the item in hopes of making a good profit out of the transaction. Of course, you know nothing of this or else you would be visiting the rich man yourself.

 

[Zervostyrd]

@tiny lampe: You do make an excellent point.

However, I find it hard to think off a system that would prevent you from selling whatever you'd like to any merchant. How would the AI know if it's "inprofitable" to buy something? And how can the AI refuse to buy something? (and how do you tell the player that a particular merchant don't want to buy it?)

Add to this that this should (IMO) be handled dynamically. A steel Salet might not be attractive today for your general store keeper since he had a hard time selling them to others. (represented by him having quite a few in stock). But the very next day, maybe a band of mercenaries came through town, having recently accomplished a job thus having cash in their pocket. Now they want some new fresh armor and buy the merchants complete stock of steel sallets. Still they want a few more... (I.E. the sallets are in high demand) If you were to swing by the merchant today the sallet would sell off at quite a fair price.

Now onto my suggestion. Everything are still sellable, but the price is decided based on what the merchant have in stock. In this scenario, a Iron helmet might be worth it's while dragging to town and sell off if the Merchant doesn't have any helmets at all. However if the merchant have a decent number of better quality helmets, the merchant are still willing to buy the helmet, but to a really low price.

This way, there's no guarantee that you will make a profit in collecting whatever the lowlife scum are wearing. But on the other hand, collecting the gear isn't totally redudant. And if you've got a luggage of 15 iron helmets, and absolutley must ease your load, selling them off isn't going to turn you a profit worth the strawl, but you get the stuff off your hand, and you'll get a coin or two anyway... As for collecting more high end gear, I reckon these stuff will never really be in high stock at the various merchants around the world, so selling off more high end gear are a fool proof way to get some profit...

 

[Komuflage]

Now onto my suggestion. Everything are still sellable, but the price is decided based on what the merchant have in stock. In this scenario, a Iron helmet might be worth it's while dragging to town and sell off if the Merchant doesn't have any helmets at all. However if the merchant have a decent number of better quality helmets, the merchant are still willing to buy the helmet, but to a really low price.

But then, wouldn't it me more profitable to sell a Iron helm to the general store, and some cheese to the armorsmith?

However, I find it hard to think off a system that would prevent you from selling whatever you'd like to any merchant. How would the AI know if it's "inprofitable" to buy something? And how can the AI refuse to buy something? (and how do you tell the player that a particular merchant don't want to buy it?)

Easiest thing I would think, is that: Shopkeepers only buy things that's relevant for their store, hence, the general store wouldn't be your helm, and the smith won't buy your cheese.

How the AI would know whatever something is profitable or not, will most likely be easier to fix with a behind the scenes formula, rather than a dynamic system (Will most likely go faster to code, hence more time on more "important" parts. And if done right, the player wont notice the difference)

I'm not sure what you mean with "And how can the AI refuse to buy something?". Either, some items wont show up when in the "sell tab", or they're greyed out, or simply when trying to sell, the NPC says that he's not interested in that particular item.



About the idea of being able to trade things, instead of getting money.
Trading a Sword for a pig

This have been done in many RPGs before, and it's not really that complicated.
Like someone mentioned, every item would just get a specific value.

So when you want to buy the Steel Sword (Worth 80coins) you can trade in your Steel dagger (Worth 15coins in used condition) a Iron helmet (Worth 20coins) and give 45coins.



Here the player trades a Beer bottle (35gold) for 4 Carrots (16gold) The player could also, if so he chooses, take another 19 gold, or 3pieces of bread + 16 gold.

 

[Rod_Lightning]

I love me some Divine Divinity. Those graphics still hold up too.

Also, I looooooooove the fact that you won't be making thousands of {insert currency here} in Sui Generis right from the start. Work for it, damnit!

 

[ZaratanCho]

Fallout 1,2, Arcanum also. Merchants refuse to buy things and you can barter. And some information about the economy in SG has been given as far as i recall, though not details about trading itself. I think i don't want to see thousands of gold being carried arround and piles of money, just 15-20 coins should be considered a solid sum.

Naturally some things can be very expensive, though i have seen some games where if you look at the common world, cities, citizens the regular things are more reasonable in price, but on the other hand you carry huge bags of coins with you and you feel like it is nothing. When you see alot of npc's treating a sum of money that you consider is absolutely nothing as a big treasure it is a bit silly. And there shouldn't be so much currency in the world as if popping out of thin air, depending on how much it resembles the economy' of this society. There can easily be a twist.

I cannot really say how it should be made because many aspects and details of the in game world should be considered and i don't know them enough, but i am confident Baremettle will handle this quite well.

 

[Zervostyrd]

But then, wouldn't it me more profitable to sell a Iron helm to the general store, and some cheese to the armorsmith?

Yeah absolutley! The Grocerie stand will be were you go for selling of armor and the Armorer is where you go when you wanna have a beer!

Well I too think that armors, weapons, tools and other metal goods are the smithys department. Medicine herbs, alchol (if there are any) and other such substances are handled by an apothecary or medicine doctor or whatever... And you may have a fletcher for arrows and what not. And last in the line is the General goods store which handles most stuff around... He doesn't have any high end gear in stock, but sells a bit of everything. (Sort of a trader in small villages, where there isn't enough busniess to go around focusing on a single form of goods..)

How the AI would know whatever something is profitable or not, will most likely be easier to fix with a behind the scenes formula, rather than a dynamic system (Will most likely go faster to code, hence more time on more "important" parts. And if done right, the player wont notice the difference)

Well "dynamic" can very much be a set formula. I went for story telling to make my point. But what I was simply saying is;

if the merchant in question have a lot of helmets, in the same or better quality compared to the one you'd like to sell. Selling it wouldn't yield you much in the way of profit. Conversely selling the very same helmet to a merchant with a low/none existent stock of helmet in your quality or worse would turn out more profitable to you.

Spoiler

simple Formula here. X is base price of ware Y:
Merchant got 0-1 Y. Players Y is worth 2X
Merchant got 2-5 Y. Players Y is worth X
Merchant got 5-7 Y. Players Y is worth 0.75X
Merchant got 7-10 Y. Players Y is worth 0.5X
Merchant got 10+ Y. Players Y is worth 0.2X

Depending on categorie (Armor, weapon, whatever, whatever) this formula could have different instock-quantity-numbers.

If you were a merchant with a lot of helmets and a guy shows up and are desperate to be rid of a bad helmet that he practically gives it to you, would you really pass?

 

[Omenov]

Having to get furniture to decorate your house seems fun imo.
However, having to pay rent, or heat the house up is not a good idea imo. Since houses most likely wont serve a real purpose, I think that it won't be worth bothering with getting wood/coal to heat it up, and most people would just not buy a house.

Ya I'm with ya there... One aspect of a player house that I always thought would be cool is taxidermy... You kill a beast and take its head to the taxidermist so you can hang it on your wall to remember your conquests but that would seem creepy if most of what you kill is humanoids. This one here is "Bill" and over here is "Ted" and of course over the fireplace is "George " hah ya creepy!

 

[Komuflage]

Ya I'm with ya there... One aspect of a player house that I always thought would be cool is taxidermy... You kill a beast and take its head to the taxidermist so you can hang it on your wall to remember your conquests but that would seem creepy if most of what you kill is humanoids. This one here is "Bill" and over here is "Ted" and of course over the fireplace is "George " hah ya creepy!

That would be a really nice feature, even if you can only display the heads of more unique enemys. I remember in fable while after killing a boss you could take a part of it as a trophy, which you could display for the citizens or hang on the wall in your house. It was a nice little touch, and as you said, you could remember your conquests.
Also it could serve as some bragging rights if you've killed a difficult beast.