Stealing and Pickpocketing

[fluffydino2000]

Stealing is something that has been discussed in the past and is one of those things that I think everyone is assuming will be in the game. Pickpocketing, on the other hand, has been mentioned twice in passing and never really been discussed.

So, how do people like these mechanics to work? Do you even like them at all?

I honestly love the option to steal in RPGs, it adds so much potential for making your own storyline. Playing a thief in an RPG should be one of the easiest roles to adopt because all you have to do is steal things and sell them to fulfil the role. Then you can start challenging yourself to steal valuable artefacts from well-guarded places.

With this in mind, I would love for both theft (I'm almost certain this will be featured) and pick-pocketing to be in the game. This leads us to the discussion of how pickpocketing would work. The way I'm imagining it is that you could pretty much loot people. It would bring up there inventory as if they were dead and you could take stuff from them. If they notice you looting them, then the window would close, as simple as that really. However, the detection would really be what made this an interesting mechanic. With such dynamic AI I'm imagining that diverting attention and distraction would be feasible. Imagine walking up to a guy and starting a conversation and as he tells you about his day you steal his lucky ring. Or walking into a guy and taking something at the same time, which would require actual skill from the player.

Also, how about the legal system, what happens if you get caught stealing in the main city. Do you get killed or put in prison. I imagine in villages would deal with you themselves.

 

[Scarecrow]

I too would love for these things to be in the game. Perhaps when you pickpocket someone, and their inventory screen comes up as you said, you have to drag things over to your own slot in a slow and precise manner to actually do it without being caught. Also if you "bump" the item you're trying to steal into one of the other items in his inventory, you will also get caught. This is of course under the circumstances where you are doing it entirely stealthy, and he is not aware of your presence. However, stealing equipped items shouldn't be possible imo.

The technique where you bump into the person them self and quickly snatch something might require a much faster drag technique, but will still involve precision.

Just a thought on how pick pocketing could work anyways. I would love to see it implemented it the game, no matter how they do it.

 

[fluffydino2000]

That's a great idea. Although, since the items are scattered randomly in the inventory, it might be impossible to remove items without causing detection. I like the idea of the speed of you moving it affecting the amount they notice it. That way, to quickly steal something, you'd need a big diversion.

For quick thefts, it might be easier to have a key bound to looting as well as a mouse click. That way your mouse is free to do the movement.

Thinking about it. If you are holding the item with your cursor when in looting someone, if the loot window closed, you'd still be holding the item with the cursor (you can see this in the third dev video). You you could just walk out of range but as long as you grabbed something and kept your mouse steady, the victim shouldn't notice you. Obviously to do this effectively you'd probably hover over where the window appears and just hope there is an item where your mouse is.

This may be too easy actually, it depends on whether or not they can detect the item once it's out of there inventory, i.e. look around and see you carrying it before you put it into your inventory.

 

[BrecMadak]

The longer time you spent at pick pocketing, much more likely you should be get detected, just like in real life. Also getting caught should not only rely on how fast you are, it would be brilliant if the game could track how precisely you mouse over the item starting dragging to putting it in your inventory. And at very altering scaling method would work best for each npc you try to pickpocket (randomly) hence it would be impossible getting used to, unlikely done in any other games. Tension in every passing sec, just dream, damn !

 

[Parco]

i like the idea of the possibility to steal whatever is within your reach, but i have a hard time imagening how pickpocketing will work well in a game like this, i guess it could work if you were behind and the npc doesnt notice you (scarecrows idea seems quite good). the idea of bumping into someone and pickpocket them in a split second is something i dont think would work unless it is automated (which i kinda hope it wont), the window would only show in a fraction of a second and if you were lucky to be able to click on anything within that time it would most likely be random what you get. so i believe just having normal pickpocketing will be the best option and as already mentioned only make it possible to pickbocket unequipped things.

I thine the legal system should work differently from area to area, in big cities people (depending on personality) would most likely report to the city guards, some would probably if they can beat the crap out of you there and then. in smaller towns/villages people would take matter in their own hands and probably come at you together. if you become too much wanted then wanted posters might pop up here and there, if the game will have newspapers then you might get mentioned in them

 

[Scarecrow]

I agree to that bumping into someone could be a bit difficult considering the short time frame the inventory window would be open, and i don't think that can be as easily done. Regarding that you would just get something random is quite like in real life however. I mean, you don't really have the time to search through his pocket for something special in that small amount of time, so i guess you would just take whatever is in there. I'm fine with just normal pick pocketing anyways, and i think the ideas in this thread already could work nicely.

The legal system should both be handled by the citizens themselves and the guards. If you steal an apple, wherever you are, i don't think the guards would even bother with it. The owner of said apple might just want to kick your ass for it. Doing things like that should also change how others perceive you, and rumors may start to spread. If you are doing a lot of criminal acts however, or severe ones, then i also like the idea that you might get a bounty on your head, and bounty hunters would be sure to follow you.
Most crimes should be handled separately however, from area to area like Parco said.

 

[fluffydino2000]

Well the idea of bumping into someone only actually came to mind when I was writing the post as I figured it would be a natural skill based thing the player could try and do without altering the mechanics I had in mind. I figure, if you wanted to, bumping would create enough of a diversion and would allow you to grab something quickly. Obviously it'd be so short the diversion that you would probably have to just take what you get, if it all, which is probably what that method of pick pocketing is like in reality anyway.

As for the legal system, I would hope that even if it were reported to a guard, only that guard would know about it. For anyone to know anything, they should have to find out about it imo, no automated knowledge spreading. Also, how would they handle you, give you a fine? Take you to some kind of medieval court?

 

[Komuflage]

the idea of bumping into someone and pickpocket them in a split second is something i dont think would work unless it is automated (which i kinda hope it wont), the window would only show in a fraction of a second and if you were lucky to be able to click on anything within that time it would most likely be random what you get.

The fact that you only have a split second, and the fact that you wouldn't know what you take, is what makes it skill based as well as a risk.


With my awesome photoshop skillz, I'll demonstrate how you would bump-pickpoket someone.

First of, you right click on the other side of the npc you want to bump.
The line demonstrate mouse movement, and the yellow star indicates a Right click (move order)
Once your character bumps into the npc you quickly Leftclick the NPC.
The yellow 6edge star indicates a left click. (However, you would most likely need to hold another key, say alt, so the game knows you just dont want to talk to the NPC)
This would open the NPCs and your inventory, Now if you just stop, with his inventory open, he would notice that you're trying to steal his things. So you need to continue walking, and stealing at the same time.
So you would have to quickly move you mouse to his inventory screen, click and Hold LMB (Shown by the RED star) and drag whatever item you got to your inventory, release the mouse, and Rightclick again to issue a move order.

You could ofc also, after opening his inventory, click somewhere to issue a move order, and then drag an item from his inventory. Wouldn't matter in which order, as long as you do it fast enough to not halt your character.

 

[fluffydino2000]

I was under the impression that the movement out of combat was pretty similar, i.e. you follow the mouse but use W to move forwards A/D to strafe and S to walk backwards. Which would probably make it much easier to do.

But yeah, a truly skilful thief would move the item from the victim's inventory window to their own (or in real life from their pocket to yours). But it could be done easier by just clicking and holding the item and walking out of loot range/closing the loot window with a key as you can hold items and move them around outside the inventory (if you don't know what I'm on about, look at the third dev video/it's thread). That way, they'd still be able to look around and see the item, but you wouldn't have to move it into your inventory and potentially miss and drop it.

I just thought that you could use this mechanic when trying to get rid of someone legally. Steal something from one guy's pocket and put it in another guys pocket then report it to a guard.

 

[Scarecrow]

Your photoshop skillz are divine @Komuflage

I agree that it could work like that with the bump technique. However, it could end up feeling a bit clumsy don't you think? Especially if you end up running around and bumping into the guy several times to prevent yourself from stopping. I think you would get some weird stares coming your way to say the least

 

[fluffydino2000]

That's a good thing isn't it. This mechanic, if implemented, would not only expand upon the possibilities of events in the game and playing the role of the thief. But it would also add more skill to it. Think about how good you'd have to be to do this effectively. Think how rewarding it would be to piece together the fact that when pickpocketing you need misdirection and an easy way to achieve it is bumping into your mark. Then realising that if you were good enough you could steal stuff without any need for stealth, in plain view of everybody, and without ever being caught. Then think how proud you'd feel when you pulled it off and the ramifications in game if you failed.

The clumsiness is good, it makes it feel authentic and adds to the challenge. And, provided the AI is good enough, it should be in exploitable. You'd get weird stares and the guy would realise what's going on.

I think it's important to remember that this isn't a mechanic on it's own. This would just be an extension of the looting and detection mechanics that would be ideal for normal pickpocketing. The way I see detection working is that they detect movements of items in there inventory. The amount they detect it is dependant on how much the item is moving (i.e. slowly moving would add little suspicion but it would build up slowly, or quick movements would add a lot of suspicion but it would be brief and so potentially dismiss-able). But, the rate at which they become suspicious can be lowered by misdirection. Talking to them, touching them, making them focus on anything would distract them. If they are distracted, the thresh-hold for there detection would increase as well as the the rate of suspicion lowering.

 

[Komuflage]

But it could be done easier by just clicking and holding the item and walking out of loot range/closing the loot window with a key as you can hold items and move them around outside the inventory (if you don't know what I'm on about, look at the third dev video/it's thread). That way, they'd still be able to look around and see the item, but you wouldn't have to move it into your inventory and potentially miss and drop it.

But now, if you made it easier, and lessen the chance of you failing (Not having to put it in you inventory, so you can't accidentally drop it on the ground) wouldn't that take away some of the skill requirement and challenge of a mup-pickpocket?

I agree that it could work like that with the bump technique. However, it could end up feeling a bit clumsy don't you think? Especially if you end up running around and bumping into the guy several times to prevent yourself from stopping. I think you would get some weird stares coming your way to say the least

Like fluffy said, yes it can be clumsy, but it's up to you to make it smoth, and if you can't do that, there is a big chance you'll get detected.

 

[fluffydino2000]

Well, if you went for the easier option, the item would be essentially in your hands (floating waiting to be placed) and everyone around would see it if they were looking in that direction. Also, if it was only you and your mark, chances are they'd look around to see the guy who rudely barged into them and see it then. The tactic I suggest is easier but with a much higher detection chance.

 

[Komuflage]

Well, if you went for the easier option, the item would be essentially in your hands (floating waiting to be placed) and everyone around would see it if they were looking in that direction. Also, if it was only you and your mark, chances are they'd look around to see the guy who rudely barged into them and see it then. The tactic I suggest is easier but with a much higher detection chance.

Well if it comes down to choice (you can chose which tactic to use depending on the situation) then I'm all for it.
I was under the impression that you only wanted the "easy" way.

 

[Velocireptile]

I would love a Pickpocket/Stealing system, I always aim for it in any RPG I play.

Oblivion had a decent system, but stealing the clothes off peoples backs was a bit over the top.

 

[Scarecrow]

Systems that allows for Thief/Rogue types are always a lot of fun in RPG's i think. I think the the Oblivion system for pickpocket was way too random however, and it didn't require any actual skill from the player, only his character.

I think that your "stealth level" should have numerous factors here.
The body weight of your character for one, since you are able to change that in the start of the game.
The weight of your current equipment/inventory should perhaps also play in here.
The material of your armor. Metal armors makes more noises than leather or cloth for instance.
The light in an area should affect wether people are able to see you when looking your way. Light is also a thaumaturgic tree, so i guess that could fit in nicely with a stealthy character.
The speed of your movement should also affect the sound you make, and what ground you are moving on. Moving on short grass should generate less sound, than moving on a wooden floor for instance.

Regarding that since items are scattered randomly in the inventory it might get hard to steal things without bumping them into others; it's up to you to decide then whether you want to take your time to rearrange some of the items in his inventory to make way, or if you just want to take the items that are easiest accessible.
Kind of a risk/reward system if you see something valuable further into his inventory screen. The longer time you use (as already stated) should increase the chance of detection, and the character you are stealing from can suddenly start moving and such as well.

 

[Madoc]

The small window of opportunity when you bump into someone is a good idea. Their inventory could appear only briefly and you have to quickly identify and grab what you want before it vanishes. Having to quickly hide it in your own inventory is also good. Obviously you wouldn't be able to take any equipped items. You should probably also only get one attempt and be mindful of circumstances.

You could potentially also have some sort of minigame based on speed, perhaps with feedback requiring to pause when the person is noticing it. Not as keen on this though, this sort of thing tends to be trivial and repetitive.

Many factors affecting stealth as Scarecrow describes are definitely a good thing, those are all things we hope to introduce. The one thing we're still not really sure about is how they affect characters attempting to hide from the player, presumably we'd just apply the same mechanics and hide characters that are successfully stealthed. Would be interesting to have someone pickpocket you, heh.

We also have a hidden skill system. There are a number of skills in the game that you develop through practice and have their own advancement mechanics but you won't be able to see them. We can keep adding these skills and modifying how they work, behind the scenes.

 

[ZaratanCho]

Would be interesting to have someone pickpocket you, heh.

Indeed. Someone bumps into you or something and you think "Wait, did he just pickpocket me..." and start chasing him down the street. It will be interesting. ;D

 

[the0thMonkey]

Obviously you wouldn't be able to take any equipped items. You should probably also only get one attempt and be mindful of circumstances.

Two questions about this:

1. About the equipped items, let's say you're playing as a rogue, but a guard spots you sneaking around and draws his sword. Would/should it be possible to sneak up behind him and disarm him (steal his sword)? Would it make any difference if he hadn't already been alerted and you were just snatching it out of his scabbard?

2. About getting only one attempt, would it be possible to check out what they're carrying without that counting? So either you bump into them once just to see what they have and then wander off and bump into them again later for the final steal, or maybe some sort of way to see what type of objects they might be carrying from a distance. For the second one, I was thinking of bulging pockets or maybe jingling. Is this too subtle/impractical? Lastly, if their attire actually corresponds realistically to the amount of wealth/valuable items they're carrying, maybe it could be done that way too.

 

[Komuflage]

2. About getting only one attempt, would it be possible to check out what they're carrying without that counting? So either you bump into them once just to see what they have and then wander off and bump into them again later for the final steal.

I hope not
Would seem kinda silly, and also somewhat ruins the challenge of it.

Just think of it like this: irl, you wouldn't be able to bump into a stranger, and then check his back pockets.
You might however be able to bump him, and very fast reach after his back pocket and grab whatever you may find.