Stealing and Pickpocketing

[fluffydino2000]

Yeah I'm with Komuflage on this. I think the best way to do it would be a lack of any actual artificial mechanics and have everything completely natural.

So if you find a guy sat at a bar and there's nobody around. He's drunk and tired. You could (with enough skill) search him without alerting him. This in the game would translate to looking at his inventory for a long time.

If you bump into someone, you couldn't realistically do this.

Actually, I just had a kind of big idea that would change the inventory slightly.

Spoiler

What if pockets acted as containers like any other bag in your inventory. That way you could see what's in there main bag (on a civilian it wouldn't be much) and that would be where your loot is shown. Then you can click on different parts of the character model within the inventory to bring up other windows as pockets. Other things could act like pockets too, like shoes, if you're really protective of money.

Only things that are realistically accessible to someone stealing would be accessible when "looting" or pickpocketing someone. This would probably be pockets and their main inventory.

When stealing, if you want to search them, you'd bring up there pockets and take the stuff you want. Or, if you want to "bump and steal" you'd click and drag a sub-container (pocket) and it would act like any other item in the inventory except it would be the entire contents of that container. Obviously, this would be much more noticeable.

There are a few problems that I can see with this.

• The main section of the inventory appears unrealistic if pockets are there.
• The contents of a sub-container acting as one item is generally problematic (with world interaction).

I don't like the idea of only being able to do it once. If it was much more difficult to do it twice because an NPC would be more suspicious of someone bumping into to them twice. Fair enough. But an artificial restriction like that doesn't sound like a good idea to me.

Also... SUB SKILLS!

Who.. What...Where? You know what, I don't even care. This sounds awesome. Is this mainly to affect the dynamic AI, like a dynamic traits system for NPCs? Or has it always been planned to help with role playing and character progression. Also, can I just make a simple request that at some point you do an update about these (in the insider forum maybe)? I know your time is valuable, and I'm not really expecting a "yes" in response to this, but I do love to find out about the mechanics behind this game (arguably more so than see gameplay of stuff we've seen before (not that that's ever happened, I mean I'd prefer it over a weekly combat video or something like that)).

 

[Madoc]

Who.. What...Where? You know what, I don't even care. This sounds awesome. Is this mainly to affect the dynamic AI, like a dynamic traits system for NPCs? Or has it always been planned to help with role playing and character progression.

Both. It's a feature we'd been contemplating since way back because of the basic issue of having to balance important combat skills with utility skills (e.g. a weapon skill vs picklock). What really made us certain we wanted it however were the role playing implications of it. For example a hidden deception skill that improves from lying to people eventually giving you access to more plausible lies in dialogue. We realised there were a lot of skills like this we could add and continue adding. NPCs always have the same "stats" as players and there is certainly some overlap here. Keeping these hidden from the player almost seemed odd at first but then it really grew on us.

 

[the0thMonkey]

I hope not
Would seem kinda silly, and also somewhat ruins the challenge of it.

Just think of it like this: irl, you wouldn't be able to bump into a stranger, and then check his back pockets.
You might however be able to bump him, and very fast reach after his back pocket and grab whatever you may find.

I don't think this is implausible in a busy setting (such as a marketplace), but that's not really the point. I hope that there will be a way to case the joint, so to speak, before actually committing to anything. Although Skyrim's system was unrealistic and overall pretty bad, even they allowed for this. Looking at someone's inventory wasn't a crime but taking anything was. I'm not going to risk being chased or ostracized without knowing beforehand that the payoff might be worth it. How could this be accomplished?

 

[fluffydino2000]

Hmm. I think that that sort of gameplay mechanic would have to be balanced well otherwise it could de-value the entire system. I liked the ideas mentioned earlier of some kind of visual representation without actually having to attempt anything. The general appearance of someone I think is a given anyway as NPCs will be realistic (i.e no beggar will have a diamond ring). The bulging of pockets and the like is arguably even better as it still leaves some mystery to the player, adding to the risk. I don't think you should be able to actually see someone's inventory without it being considered an offence. It just wouldn't seem realistic to me.

Maybe you could watch people, see what items they use (maybe someone pulls out an expensive pipe, idk). Maybe you could "examine" people which would give a description about the size of there pockets and how wealthy they look. Maybe you could go up to someone and feel there pockets (examine them when you are closer for a better description).

Maybe you could use thaumaturgy somehow; x-ray vision or something similar with Light. Read the Mind of the mark to find out what they have on them.

And the obvious, Displace the pockets of victims.

The interesting thing about all this is that none of it should matter that much if it becomes over-powered. Because money isn't going to do all that much for you, especially when you're a powerful enough thaumaturge to do all of this.

 

[BrecMadak]

Maybe you could watch people, see what items they use (maybe someone pulls out an expensive pipe, idk). Maybe you could "examine" people which would give a description about the size of there pockets and how wealthy they look. Maybe you could go up to someone and feel there pockets (examine them when you are closer for a better description).

'Awareness' perk.

 

[the0thMonkey]

On a different note, I'm wondering where the line between player skill and character skill should be drawn for this issue. If pickpocketing involves a minigame that rewards patience or subtle mouse movements (physical traits that might make for a good thief) then that sounds like it would be leaning toward player skill. Alternatively, it could be much less skilful and rely much more on the character's stats (as in TES).

Should a person good at playing as stealthy characters but who currently is playing as a fighter be able to pickpocket as well as a high level thief being played by a reckless person? This same sort question could be applied to many different elements of a game, but what do you think in terms of pickpocketing?

 

[fluffydino2000]

I imagine that there is very little chance to anything a player has control of. So since the player controls pick-pocketing, I imagine there will be very little left to chance. If lockpicking has no minigame, it'll be entirely based around the sub-skill (and maybe physique). The player has no control of the outcome of a lie so it would also have to be chance based. Actually, there may be no chance at all and more "threshholds" that determine success. So if skill x is above value y you will always succeed at action z.

 

[Komuflage]

On a different note, I'm wondering where the line between player skill and character skill should be drawn for this issue. If pickpocketing involves a minigame that rewards patience or subtle mouse movements (physical traits that might make for a good thief) then that sounds like it would be leaning toward player skill. Alternatively, it could be much less skilful and rely much more on the character's stats (as in TES).

Should a person good at playing as stealthy characters but who currently is playing as a fighter be able to pickpocket as well as a high level thief being played by a reckless person? This same sort question could be applied to many different elements of a game, but what do you think in terms of pickpocketing?

Well, looking at oblivions lockpick mechanic, it was possible for someone without lockpicking skill to pick a "very hard" lock, but it required a bit of patience and player skill, while someone with high skill could pick it much easier.

"hould a person good at playing as stealthy characters but who currently is playing as a fighter be able to pickpocket as well as a high level thief being played by a reckless person?"

So to answer this question, I guess, yes, it would be possible, but it requires much much more player skill.


But I also guess it all comes down to balance, you wouldn't want to make it so that a high skilled thief, can pickpocket someone without any challenge, but you wouldn't want a low skilled character to pickpocket to easy.

 

[Fawz]

The idea that the player can perform specific actions and have his characters's attributes change without him being given a direct visual queue is a really good one. I especially like it because this makes people more conscious of their actions without the need to have every cause/effect spelled out to the player.

I feel like a system like that will put players in a situation where for example they could lie to an NPC, and despite being able to get away with it and there not being a 'karma' meter, the player would still feel like there might be some direct consequence to his action that he's not seeing and make him act a past the direct consequence/reward system traditionally seen in recent RPGs.

 

[fluffydino2000]

I've been thinking about this system of sub-skills and I agree, it is pretty genius. It opens so many doors to things that would otherwise be over-complex and exploitable. Think about the deception example. Based on your actions, your character can become better and better at lying, but this may also make your player seem less and less genuine and just appear less trustworthy generally. This couldn't normally be applied to a character because it wouldn't achieve anything. But if there are other hidden social skills that determine the perception of lies and reading people, it opens much more doors to interactions with characters.