Swimming ?

Bibidibop

Insider
That seems like pretty complex emergent gameplay to develop systems for -- for now Madoc says no player crafting.
No crafting is a relief of sorts, and you're right that my idea is too complex.

What about having it so armor doesn't count against floating when stored in a bag? It glosses over a ton of stuff, but it's very simple, and flexible.

I also thought of a way to float if you have the Force power. Just push against the water downward, in the shape of a hull, and push against the water rearward for propulsion. You can't fight while doing this, but you can cross water in armor, and do so very quickly.
 

calithlin

Insider
I also thought of a way to float if you have the Force power. Just push against the water downward, in the shape of a hull, and push against the water rearward for propulsion. You can't fight while doing this, but you can cross water in armor, and do so very quickly.
I think the first thing that should be considered is: what benefit does swimming/deep water add to the game overall. A lot of Sui Generis' development so far is centered around making every aspect very in depth and physics-accurate. I think most people would find that in Skyrim the ability to swim didn't add much because the developers didn't really focus a lot on it. Would it be worth the added development time to add large bodies of water? In an isometric game I am not sure (has there been an isometric game with real swimming?).

Sorry if it feels like I am shooting down ideas all the time, just trying to make sure that everything is thought out thoroughly and adds as much benefit to the game as possible for the needed man-hours required in developing the systems.
 

walltar

Insider
I think the first thing that should be considered is: what benefit does swimming/deep water add to the game overall.
It don't have to add nothing ... i see big problem in no swimming ... eiter you have to make all water shallow, which is weird if you come across larger body of water and it is half meter deep or you have to make invisible walls/instant death to deep water, which is for me gamebreaking and totally unacceptable. I dont know if you seen recent game named WarZ but no swimming here is just bad.

There don't need to be large bodies of water for depth to be a problem ... rivers and ponds are deep enough for you to drown. If there will be only smaller streams on map then i see no problems.
 

Bibidibop

Insider
I think the first thing that should be considered is: what benefit does swimming/deep water add to the game overall. A lot of Sui Generis' development so far is centered around making every aspect very in depth and physics-accurate. I think most people would find that in Skyrim the ability to swim didn't add much because the developers didn't really focus a lot on it. Would it be worth the added development time to add large bodies of water? In an isometric game I am not sure (has there been an isometric game with real swimming?).

Sorry if it feels like I am shooting down ideas all the time, just trying to make sure that everything is thought out thoroughly and adds as much benefit to the game as possible for the needed man-hours required in developing the systems.
As long as everything is civil, I enjoy discussing every idea's merits. :)

Water in Elder Scrolls games is a good point. What I mostly remember about it is that it is only a mild impediment, even the roughest river can be swum safely, in the heaviest armor; only animals made it dangerous, and only its speed reduction made it annoying. Just diving into white water is the kind of thing only an extreme sports enthusiast, someone who is desperate, or who carefully plans would attempt in real life. In Man Versus Wild, when Bear Guiles crosses a river, it is always a very dangerous undertaking, which, in cold environments, risks hypothermia, not being able to get back out, or injury by hitting something in the water. In hot environments, animals, and disease are the dangers; and in water fighting is difficult. In fload scanerios, a depth of a few inches of water moving at high speed is enough to move a car, and constantly trip and batter a person.

For water bodies to be something worth modelling, short of interesting water craft, I believe it has to pose a true hazard which bears serious consideration. With physics, the danger of being slammed into rocks is a good danger, and can make finding purchase against a cliff or ledge more difficult. Assuming a European themed land, low water temperature should rapidly sap strength, and cause dangerous lingering effects. Moats can have disease which have a chance of causing wasting sickness, as castle latrines usually dumped into moats. Rivers downstream from cities could have a similar risk.

Depending on water depth, characters should become more encumbered as they enter progressively deeper water; water up to the ankle would slow sword fighting, but not as much as if water were up to the knee, or arms. Swimming should defeat the encumbrance effect, but only if a character's buoyancy and strength allow for swimming; otherwise the character can only walk in water, and hop to the surface for breaths, or perhaps use a reed for breathing; but swimming should greatly limit fighting options (perhaps daggers and fists only). As proposed before, simply bundling armor, or perhaps any item, removes the weight penalty in swimming, under the assumption of buoyant bags. Bundling armor would take minutes of time in-game, so it's not a spur of the moment decision if danger is near. However, the ability to dive into water, and shed armor could be thrilling as an escape method; you would lose your armor, but if you could remove the armor within a breath limit, then you would start swimming, instead of drowning. Perhaps another dynamic could be wet and dry clothing; cold wet clothing prevents stamina recovery if suffering cold effects, unless it is wool, which is one of the few, or only natural, materials which can retain heat when completely soaked.

The utility of water is it becomes an effective non-structure based barrier, or extra defensive line, with a variable chance of circumvention. The importance of bundling items for swimming is that it allows water to be crossed, otherwise people would have to leave their gear behind to cross water, and no one would ever cross water in that case.

If swimming isn't seen as worth while, then at least having the gradual encumbrance modeled would be worthwhile, as would chilling, if the game takes place in cool enough temperature, or with mountain water. Disease also make sense to include. Not using bagged item swimming is more realistic, and even light armor would be too heavy to swim with. It also means not having to ignore the ability to swim with dozens of pounds of gold on your body. This would still leave room for bodies of water with variable depth, which can be crossed with deep wading, and water velocity mattering in regard to whether or not you will be swept away.
 

Bibidibop

Insider
I just realized something, how common would swimming be in a Medieval setting? I don't know, but I would guess not very common. Perhaps swimming, if it gets in, needs to be an acquired skill, either by finding a teacher, or by experimenting with wading, or by having an appropriate origin, if they're selectable. Or, it's just a good excuse not to have swimming.
 

calithlin

Insider
I just realized something, how common would swimming be in a Medieval setting? I don't know, but I would guess not very common. Perhaps swimming, if it gets in, needs to be an acquired skill, either by finding a teacher, or by experimenting with wading, or by having an appropriate origin, if they're selectable. Or, it's just a good excuse not to have swimming.
Many people avoided rivers and bathing because it was considered 'unclean' at the time (mostly because of human waste pollution/runoff)
How this is transferred in-game I wouldn't know.
 

Cooper Holt

Insider
I'm not sure introducing swimiming would do much if anything to improve gameplay. Adding underwater combat would be awkward and too much work for nothing.

I say keep it simple and have shallow water lines you can cross but they slow you down and it's just made so you can at least traverse
Swimming sucks, leave it out. I have yet to see one "good" swimming combat..... or swimming section at all.
Refer to Madoc's comment.
 

Cooper Holt

Insider
That seems like pretty complex emergent gameplay to develop systems for -- for now Madoc says no player crafting.
He mentioned that crafting with the proper tools and skills would be available.
Also, he mentioned updates after release.
I asked him personally. :3
 

Cooper Holt

Insider
No crafting is a relief of sorts, and you're right that my idea is too complex.

What about having it so armor doesn't count against floating when stored in a bag? It glosses over a ton of stuff, but it's very simple, and flexible.

I also thought of a way to float if you have the Force power. Just push against the water downward, in the shape of a hull, and push against the water rearward for propulsion. You can't fight while doing this, but you can cross water in armor, and do so very quickly.
That would drain way too much focus. Water isn't light, it's actually very heavy. I don't imagine this being possible.
As long as everything is civil, I enjoy discussing every idea's merits. :)

Water in Elder Scrolls games is a good point. What I mostly remember about it is that it is only a mild impediment, even the roughest river can be swum safely, in the heaviest armor; only animals made it dangerous, and only its speed reduction made it annoying. Just diving into white water is the kind of thing only an extreme sports enthusiast, someone who is desperate, or who carefully plans would attempt in real life. In Man Versus Wild, when Bear Guiles crosses a river, it is always a very dangerous undertaking, which, in cold environments, risks hypothermia, not being able to get back out, or injury by hitting something in the water. In hot environments, animals, and disease are the dangers; and in water fighting is difficult. In fload scanerios, a depth of a few inches of water moving at high speed is enough to move a car, and constantly trip and batter a person.

For water bodies to be something worth modelling, short of interesting water craft, I believe it has to pose a true hazard which bears serious consideration. With physics, the danger of being slammed into rocks is a good danger, and can make finding purchase against a cliff or ledge more difficult. Assuming a European themed land, low water temperature should rapidly sap strength, and cause dangerous lingering effects. Moats can have disease which have a chance of causing wasting sickness, as castle latrines usually dumped into moats. Rivers downstream from cities could have a similar risk.

Depending on water depth, characters should become more encumbered as they enter progressively deeper water; water up to the ankle would slow sword fighting, but not as much as if water were up to the knee, or arms. Swimming should defeat the encumbrance effect, but only if a character's buoyancy and strength allow for swimming; otherwise the character can only walk in water, and hop to the surface for breaths, or perhaps use a reed for breathing; but swimming should greatly limit fighting options (perhaps daggers and fists only). As proposed before, simply bundling armor, or perhaps any item, removes the weight penalty in swimming, under the assumption of buoyant bags. Bundling armor would take minutes of time in-game, so it's not a spur of the moment decision if danger is near. However, the ability to dive into water, and shed armor could be thrilling as an escape method; you would lose your armor, but if you could remove the armor within a breath limit, then you would start swimming, instead of drowning. Perhaps another dynamic could be wet and dry clothing; cold wet clothing prevents stamina recovery if suffering cold effects, unless it is wool, which is one of the few, or only natural, materials which can retain heat when completely soaked.

The utility of water is it becomes an effective non-structure based barrier, or extra defensive line, with a variable chance of circumvention. The importance of bundling items for swimming is that it allows water to be crossed, otherwise people would have to leave their gear behind to cross water, and no one would ever cross water in that case.

If swimming isn't seen as worth while, then at least having the gradual encumbrance modeled would be worthwhile, as would chilling, if the game takes place in cool enough temperature, or with mountain water. Disease also make sense to include. Not using bagged item swimming is more realistic, and even light armor would be too heavy to swim with. It also means not having to ignore the ability to swim with dozens of pounds of gold on your body. This would still leave room for bodies of water with variable depth, which can be crossed with deep wading, and water velocity mattering in regard to whether or not you will be swept away.
I like it! :D
To add to the idea of polluted water, I believe that almost all water in the "wasteland" areas should have polluted water. Just a thought.
 
You can already wade through water and the increased fluid friction (aka air resistance) of water affects the physics based animation quite realistically. Currently water is not disturbed by interaction with other objects and I'd say that and buoyancy probably the most important next features for water.

Swimming and even basic boat travel don't strike me as particularly difficult to do but as always it's a matter of priorities and having a lot of stuff to do in just 18 months. Assuming the game is relatively successful we hope to continue improving it and adding features for some time after release.

I'm tempted to discuss inventory a little but that should probably happen in the Inventory handling thread.
(Yah ! That means we can!)
 
Actually I use to play an verisonual world when I was still 15 and I can able to swim, but there is No!! danger as I swim and I serirously swim the whole why across to another cournty (LOL)
 
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