T is for torch

[RobG]

Just another one from me on a minor thing I find a little awkward, and a suggestion.

I've mentioned it before but I will try and bear in mind the feedback I got that time with this. Swapping from exploring with a torch to combat often results in me running in circles desperately trying to drop the torch and equip my weapon get back into combat mode and hope I haven't been hit. It can be especially painful as the inv is auto dropping us from combat mode (no complaint about that btw totally reasonable)

Rather than my original suggestion of a quick swap, which is perhaps again considered a little 'gamey' I think this could be improved with something like a 'panic drop' button for the torch, just to take away that time taken dragging the torch, and then equipping the weapon as normal. I think this would be a reasonable and realistic action, and taking away half of that time clicking and dragging things around would make a massive difference. Bearing in mind this isn't an issue NPC's have to deal with, and can have a big influence on the success or failure of a run/fight it would be nice to see it streamlined at least a little.

 

[Murf]

Might also be better practice instead of fighting in a dark area, when you encounter a angry npc, get to a lighted area before swapping out the torch for weapons.

Hope they don't make this too easy, having some kind of easy way to swap out torch for a weapon would make combat much easier IMO.

 

[RobG]

Well yes, clearly only an issue in the dark areas, sometimes though I cant really run to light as the risk of running into further trouble is too high. I'm with you, I think it should take some effort and should be difficult, as its sort of a punishment for not being ready for an encounter (which again gets lessened after you learn areas and where enemies will be and can plan accordingly) My point really is though is its something which can tip a fight in an NPC's favour and not something an enemy ever has to worry about. I can actually manage to do it fine the majority of the time to be honest but it takes some circle running, kiting and the like which is the aspect I am keen to see lessened. In terms of realism dropping the torch would be a quicker action IRL. Obviously all just my opinions just putting them out there.

I actually don't think I've explained my point well enough, if enemies found it much harder to aim attacks in the dark it, would be a more level playing field this however could be very easily cheesed potentially. I've heard the devs talking about everything a player can do in combat so can the npc but certain player actions give an inherent disadvantage. As the player is forced into dropping the torch repeatedly as you play, your brain actually drops the torch about 2 seconds before you see it happen. That's enough time for 2 swings from a slow weapon.

Dropping the torch feels like it should be reactive instant decision but it is represented with a time consuming task which interferes with your critical mouse position. As we all will eventually learn a way to compensate like as you say pulling into light or placing torches in advance of combat, I don't think it would change the difficulty of the game really just change this thing we are all doing anyway, in and out of combat, into less of an action and more of a reaction.

If it would impact difficulty however you could make up for the extra time we would have been vulnerable by slowing the mouse slightly when we drag a weapon from our bag to our hand and also force enemies to occasionally have to unsheathe. This would surely be more realistic and more evenly balanced.

 

[Murf]

Yeah I hear ya. Just disagree is all No worries.

 

[RobG]

You disagree dropping would be quicker IRL or? I realise it may sound like I'm trying to argue the case for an 'easier' game but actually its not really about that, its more a realism and balance point I'm trying to make. Anyway, can appreciate an opposing opinion and respect it, the world would be a boring place without them right

 

[RobG]

Oh I should point out by the way there is a cheesy way to avoid this issue by just manually moving the torch around on the floor and advancing slowly, I don't do it though, far too laborious (and cheesy) xD

 

[ZaratanCho]

Having a torch equipped and dropping it on the ground when you enter combat mode doesn't seem like a bad idea for two handed weapons.

I do like that it's a tough choice using a two handed weapon or a one handed+torch though, but that seems reasonable. Don't know. ;d

 

[RobG]

Having a torch equipped and dropping it on the ground when you enter combat mode

I thought about that, but I think actually its a bad idea to auto drop on combat mode, it could be really annoying if you don't actually want to drop the torch. I'm more of a sword and board man so I'm quite practised at the old juggling now

One handed plus torch fights look cool as hell, but just a bit too risky for me xD I need my barrel lid!

 

[Cpt Dave]

There should be nothing stopping you from carrying a two-handed weapon with one hand and a torch in the other, you just can't fight with it efficiently. Or you can just have your weapon sheathed.
And then there are swords/axes that are not too big to use with one hand, but you can use two hands to deliver more forceful blows.

If you should put your torch in the inventory, or drop it on the ground upon entering combat, that's a different question.

I really hope you will be able to have multiple weapons sheathed.
As an example, you could carry a spear/javelin in your hand, a short sword on your side, shield on your back or buckler on your side, and a dagger on your hand/in your boot. That way you could throw your spear, switch to your sword, and get out your dagger if you get disarmed.

Also, with some weapons, you should be able to switch which side you strike with to change type of damage you do, like slashing/piercing with a halberd or battleaxe, or blunt/piercing with a war hammer.

These things would greatly increase flexibility/complexity in the game.
If there will be no disarming/sheathing/quickly switching between weapons, that's a missed opportunity.
It's very unhandy to stop in the middle of the combat, open your inventory, and switch weapons by dragging and dropping for whatever reason.

 

[RobG]

@Cpt Dave From what I remember the devs saying was that 'quick swaps' were considered at one point and then decided against. Originally I thought the same as you, but after more time playing on the whole I actually think that is a good thing forcing the player to go into their inv and out of combat mode feels correct to me, a little awkward to do but that fits with, it actually would be awkward to do this in reality, and probably leave you open for a short time and unfocused on combat. I'm not in favour of quick swapping weapons really I like how it is now.

Id like to be able to drop the torch as a reactionary move to align with what I feel my character would do in that situation, having said that its not a big deal either and not something that is going to affect my enjoyment of the game as a whole, whether the system changes or not.

 

[AfroHermit]

Hi guys, I would like to disagree abit on the quick swaps, the idea shouldn't entirely be thrown out but should be streamlined to fit in the immersive and realistic gameplay setting. My suggestion is that the player is able to equip a primary and/or secondary weapon (sidearm), plus a shield and/or touch (utility item). These items are always visible on the paper-doll and the paper-doll would have to physically reach and draw the weapon, it isn't an instant swap/equip.

Let me explain the and/or : Imagine hotkeys 1-4 work as
1: Primary weapon (mainhand) takes 1-2 seconds to unsheathe
2: Secondary Weapon (sidearm, only small weapons like a dagger or small handaxe) takes 1 seconds to unsheathe
3: Shield
4: Torch

Now the system would work like this;

FIRST THOUGHT
There are 2 modes of pressing the button, press or press-and-hold.
Entering combat mode unsheathe's your main hand as usual. Now if you press 2 to switch to ur dagger you throw down your main and unsheathe your dagger. If instead you press-and-hold 2, you sheathe your main and then unsheathe your dagger. It works same way, if you have dagger in hand first. Same works for torch and shield if you are using torch and press for shield, it throws down the torch then pulls shield, holding sheathe's then equips.

Throwing down the what you are currently wielding and unsheathing the next is faster than sheathing and unsheathing, sheathing and unsheathing can also be interrupted so throwing down your torch in time to unsheathe becomes a tactical choice, as well as being fully immersive without the need to use an inventory window mid combat.

*This was an afterthought as I thought of a way to make swapping a torch/shield for a dagger in the off-hand.
With the above system, what happens if you wanted to throw down the shield/torch and you want to equip a dagger on your off-hand?
If you currently have a primary weapon equipped then secondary, torch, and shield are equipped/unequipped to the off-hand. But if you have no primary weapon currently equipped then it equips the dagger to the main hand. If you now unsheathe your primary the character swaps the dagger to the off-hand and then unsheathe's the primary with the main-hand.
This is also closer to the current system as


SECOND THOUGHT
Now as I pondered this system I thought of another way to become more flexible but adds more key presses. This led me to think of a system where you first select what you want to swap and then select what you are swapping it to. e.g.

1. Sword 2. Dagger 3. shield 4. torch

So I am adventuring with my torch out and weapons sheathed, I engage an enemy and enter combat mode which unsheathe's my main hand, with the torch in my offhand (torch should always be on offhand no need to swap it from main-hand as we will almost always have a weapon we can unsheathe). I decide I want to get my dagger out because I am a duel wielding assassin that has pre-coated my dagger in a poison that when I do damage to an enemy they have a worse balance or worse accuracy. But it takes 20s to stark working instead of immediately. But every time u land a blow with your offhand it reduces the time by 3s. But I digress, so to select my dagger I press 4 and then press 2 which throws down my torch and unsheathe's my dagger, pressing 4 and then press-and-hold 2 sheathes the torch and then unsheathes the dagger.

This system would probably need more muscle memory and would take a tiny bit longer as it takes 2 keys to swap rather than 1.

 

[Cpt Dave]

Imagine a wild west setting. There is a duel about to go down. The clock hits noon, the bells start ringing. Both combatants start searching through the gigantic loot bag carried on their shoulder to find their revolvers.

I think having a weapon on your side, pressing a button and seeing an animation would be better. But if push comes to shove, in the current system I can always just use self made macros to instantaneously switch between anything.

 

[nrage]

I think a button to swap between weapons/setups is a good idea.

Opening your inventory to do it is harder, sure, but it's also not realistic. As Cpt Dave has illustrated it's like opening your backpack and looking inside for a weapon. Definitely not what you would do in a combat situation. Picking something up from the floor to use would be a right pain, so that will naturally flow from what we already have quite nicely.

I think any sort of button swap should be limited to a realistic number of setups - specifically only what you can carry on your body in sheaths, straps etc. For example, having a sword on your hip, and shield on your back, plus a dagger in your boot or in the back of your belt is reasonable. Perhaps you need to actually find the belt and sheath, or shoulder strap before you can do it. This makes the game richer indeed.

I like the idea of being able to either drop or sheath a weapon by tapping or holding the button.

You cannot sheath a torch however, so it would always drop to the floor.

 

[Rick]

Perhaps having an item like a sheath or belt to allow the ability to be better, and using the middle mouse button to auto equip sheated weapon (and drop what you are holding) would be more fluid?

 

[Guibou9]

Perhaps having an item like a sheath or belt to allow the ability to be better, and using the middle mouse button to auto equip sheated weapon (and drop what you are holding) would be more fluid?

Maybe not the ''middle mouse button'' because it's used to rotate the camera but the general idea of having sheathed weapons to swap instead of looking inside the inventory makes a lot of sense. Also I agree with this panic key which makes your character drops the torch (especially if they eventually make that while not using a two hander ''carried on the shoulder'' you can use a torch in the free hand). Dropping it on the ground while lit would be realistic and very useful.

''I know this discussion is old but w/e''

 

[Greenbrog]

Less button is better. Dropping the torch on command, don't think this is in the spirit of the game. Having erasing swaps, which is planned, well, that was an audible by the devs to plan that inclusion. Having your torch on an item set... that sounds great. Personally is like some more differant light sources you can carry, especially magical ones, like a shield with a bullseye lantern maybe, or a shoulder or belt lantern. OR something wisp-like. The dynamic nature of light in this game allows a lot of opportunities, but the realism and fact that light is a resource that has to be managed having mechanisms top make this easier might not be in the spirit of the game, considering there will not be a light spell. Though there are magical light sources.

 

[K.L.R.G.]

Maybe not the ''middle mouse button'' because it's used to rotate the camera but the general idea of having sheathed weapons to swap instead of looking inside the inventory makes a lot of sense. Also I agree with this panic key which makes your character drops the torch (especially if they eventually make that while not using a two hander ''carried on the shoulder'' you can use a torch in the free hand). Dropping it on the ground while lit would be realistic and very useful.

''I know this discussion is old but w/e''

One of the things that bug me is that you can't wear a Two-handed sword AND your torch. You carry the sword over your shoulder with one hand. Being able to hold a torch with the over hand and dropping it shouldn't be that kind of a problem ... It didn't need a panic button ...
The character could just drop it as soon as you enter Battle-Mode ...

 

[Guibou9]

shoulder or belt lantern. OR something wisp-like.

A belt lantern sounds like a great idea also reminds me of Dragon's Dogma XD

@K.L.R.G. You know what, I agree with you. It's silly that you can't use a torch with that free hand, and automatically dropping it when entering combat doesn't add more buttons and seems logical.

 

[Greenbrog]

I'm all for more light sources, don't get me wrong. But.... you use two hands with two handed items when you, "run."

 

[burgzaza]

I'm all for more light sources, don't get me wrong. But.... you use two hands with two handed items when you, "run."

I don't think so, well depends of the weapon and of the level of panic maybe, but if you run normaly with a battle axe or a two handed sword, I think that you could still rest your weapon on your shoulder, holding it with one hand. It would bumb a little but not that mutch.