T is for torch

[Greenbrog]

Seriously, do a sprint. When you run you have the weapon balanced straight up with both hands out slightly in front of you. I think you're missing just how hard it is to move aid with a 5 foot sword or pole arm. Go grab a broom. Put a 10 lb weigh on one end, more go outside and find a place you can run. Start running. Stop, quickly and turn around. Do that a couple times. Now pretend it's a weapon and understand the thing can kill you if you fall on it . Running with a lacrosse stick takes 100s of hours of practice. And it is designed to be run with. And even that needs 2 hands much of the time.

Something else to consider. A torch is on fire. Unfortunately, it doesn't make sense to walk with a 2 hander and torch, unless you can't run and/or you drop the torch. We already have to suspend our disbelieve with the torch much of the time. But managing a stick on fire and a huge weapon designed to used with 2 hands in the other isn't believable. People don't try to do this with a rifle/shotgun and flashlight, and flashlight won't set you on fire. Dropping your weapon could mean death.

 

[K.L.R.G.]

@Greenbrog:
Congratulation ... you made me run around with a broom over my shoulders through my narrow apartement-doors ...
And actually ... I don't see the problem ...

I can't run full speed with it but the character with it's armour on never looks like she runs in full speed anyway. If you really want to hit the realism-note you could make her run a little bit slower as soon as she holds both objects, but that's it ...

There is not much more suspension of disbelive than ever-burning-torches, sound-cue-driven-door-latches, invisibly item-interaction and similar stuff ...

On the Plusside there would be smoother gameplay because it won't be necessary to fumble around with the inventory and the torch while exploring dark areas with an effective weapon ... (Am I the only one who gets annoyed by the fact that the object you want to lay down allways snaps back when you put it slightly out of your distance-radius)?

Other simpler Solution:
If you carry Twohander and Torch you simply can't run, only walk. (That wouldn't require an extra Torch-Twohander-Running-Animation).
When you are exploring dark areas you didn't want to run in most situations anyway.
This would limit you and benefit the use of One-Handed Weapond and Torch, without ruling the Two handed weapon out totally ...

 

[Greenbrog]

I still don't think a 2h weapon and torch is all that feasible, but if they make it so you can but can't run /sprint then that would seem a nice balance.

Never argued the torch wasn't along a huge suspension of belief, it's fine this way for game flow reasons, but it also means you have to make up for that in other ways, can't throw the baby out with the bath water.

When weapon swaps come around having a torch and one hander and a 2h on swap will solve a lot if this. Though I personally plan to use a 2h and crossbow as my 2 setups, and just wear the helmet.

As it stands now and as I previously said, light is a resource you have to manage. I understand why anything making this easier or harder needs a lot of game balance around it, and it's more about the story and gameplay that the devs want. Remember I want more light sources too.

 

[Solinarius]

I think it's as simple as: every weapon needs to be easily manageable in regards to UI; forget the fact that weapon swap will exist. In my opinion, it's only fair that you can carry a torch with a two-handed weapon. Not being able to sprint? Sure. Not being able to at least run? That sounds unreasonable.

If you can fit a two-handed sword in your inventory, by golly, you can hold a torch and a two-handed weapon (and run) at the same time. Not only would it be funner if the character discarded the held torch when combat is toggled, it would be symbolic.

 

[Wisphet]

forget the fact that weapon swap will exist.

Some other features that are due to make an appearance in the near future are:

• Swapping between 2 sets of hand-held equipment with a single button press
• Uncosciousness. When your stamina reaches zero you will fall unconcious rather than die
• Dual wield combat
• Thrust attacks
• Steam Controller support
• Procedurally generated weapons, including many new types
• Removal of the paperdoll for a new inventory system

I find this a funny =)

 

[Madoc]

Basically the only real adavantage of ONE handed weapons is that the other hand is free for something else, e.g. carrying a torch. Expecting one handed weapons and two handed weapons to be equal in combat is unrealistic, because they are not and we can't artificially make up for it with damage numbers or attack speed or whatever other typical game BS. The fact that a compromise must be made and other playstyles adopted instead of the most OP weapon always being the best in all circumstances is very much intentional. Weapon swapping will indeed make using two handed weapons less cumbersome, but it's still supposed to be a meaningful choice, not an obvious one.

As for all these flaky realism arguments, as a general statement, I'd like to point out that there's a somewhat enormous difference between not showing something because it's implicit, and actually showing something that is not realistic or plausible.

 

[Gsprfdude]

Seriously, do a sprint. When you run you have the weapon balanced straight up with both hands out slightly in front of you. I think you're missing just how hard it is to move aid with a 5 foot sword or pole arm. Go grab a broom. Put a 10 lb weigh on one end, more go outside and find a place you can run. Start running. Stop, quickly and turn around. Do that a couple times. Now pretend it's a weapon and understand the thing can kill you if you fall on it . Running with a lacrosse stick takes 100s of hours of practice. And it is designed to be run with. And even that needs 2 hands much of the time.

Something else to consider. A torch is on fire. Unfortunately, it doesn't make sense to walk with a 2 hander and torch, unless you can't run and/or you drop the torch. We already have to suspend our disbelieve with the torch much of the time. But managing a stick on fire and a huge weapon designed to used with 2 hands in the other isn't believable. People don't try to do this with a rifle/shotgun and flashlight, and flashlight won't set you on fire. Dropping your weapon could mean death.

Problem here is that what you said wouldn't be a really good way to determine things. On average two handed swords and poleaxes only weighed about 5-8lbs. The main reasons that medieval two-handed weapons (I say medieval because they are designed very alike to the ones featured in game) were difficult to handle were length and the distribution of weight. As far as most two-handed swords go they were pretty balanced in weight, due to their pommels and guards counter-weighting the long blade. So by having a 10lb (which is still an incorrect amount) at the end of a pole, you really won't be to gauge it effectively as a sword. However, I will give you this, if the amount of weight was changed it would be a good way to determine how you worked with a polearm. Most of a polearms weight was far at the end of the pole. The weight of the shaft (usually wood) did contribute somewhat but it was still mostly at the head.

Also the more european designed weapons (most of what has been discussed) tended to be pretty weird in terms of their sharpness. A common myth was that medieval european swords and other bladed weapons were very dull. This was not true as most records can prove, however they can also prove that the blades had a "level" of dullness to them. The swords had a level of versatility to them that is frequently underrated. They were sharp enough that they could tear flesh just by being pushed or pulled against the skin (this is called The Slice in German sword techniques), while also being "dull" enough that the edge wouldn't be ruined by repeated striking. So while it is certainly for the weapon to kill you if you fall on it, is not extremely likely and would need a very deliberate angle.

I've made this reply mainly just to address based on the above that the weapons are less clumsy than most people think and that they are less lethal to the user than is usually assumed. So it's not unreasonable to carry a torch and a two handed weapon over your other shoulder. There is certainly more hazard involved in the case of the Fire:Face distance ratio. But I believe that its mostly negligible. It's very simple to run with a weapon balanced on your shoulder, and most novices could pull it off. And despite some initial getting used to I'm confident that the only problem one might have is their weapon smacking the walls. It seems very reasonable to me that one would be able to handle a burning stick and one of these weapons while running around. It gets even easier once a person has to drop their torch to ready their weapon. The only hazard at that point is the risk of stepping on the torch, which to be fair is a risk for any type of fighter if they dropped the torch. I'm also enclosing a picture and a diagram of the weapons to help make the weight distribution visible.

Sorry if the quality is a little poor, also I completely agree with Madoc's statement on realism.

 

[Greenbrog]

Didn't mean my example to be taken so literally. It was only meant to demonstrate the difficulty of running with something cumbersome, like a long sword or bill or 2h axe. A broom is not dangerous to fall on either. Anyone being honest on trying to run around with a 2h sword has to admit you can't safely run through a poorly lit cramped under construction foreign enemy laden dungeon and not expect to impale themselves on their own weapon. I laugh everytime I fall over a buttress or dead mob or chair, but since I don't stab myself everytime it's funny.

Either way madoc ended the discussion with meta-game reasoning which rarely seems to be the deciding factor in this game, but sometimes is the best choice.

2h weapons = better, mostly
Therfore needs draw backs.
Light is a resource that needs to be managed.

 

[Greenbrog]

A 5 to 7 foot weapon balanced on you shoulder while you run through a foreign-pooly-lit-enemy-filled-under-constuction-setup-for-siege-while-looking-for-keys-and-traps-and-other-hazards while holding a torch does not make sense. Especially because you can't strap a torch to a shield (game balance).

Madoc answered this with a meta-game reason, and while that's not normally the deciding factor (it would seem), it was in this case. More reach is superior to less, this isn't a play style it's a fact.

But you're just being delusional if you think that when you put all the variables together that you can safely sprint around with a two handed weapon and torch.

 

[Solinarius]

Either way madoc ended the discussion with meta-game reasoning which rarely seems to be the deciding factor in this game, but sometimes is the best choice.

2h weapons = better, mostly
Therfore needs draw backs.
Light is a resource that needs to be managed.

Why does 'light management' mean I have to be continuously annoyed by the torch. Weapon swap will cut out a step while you're simply exploring, but when combat occurs in a dark area, you have play the click-on-the-tiny-pixels-while-under-distress game and drag the torch onto the floor. That is a huge interruption to the flow of the game. Same deal when you need to lay the torch down when anticipating combat nearby, while in a dark area.

 

[Greenbrog]

The game is meant to be dark.
The light is extremely dynamic.
The light is part of what brings this world to life.
Light is meant to be a resource you have to manage.

Madoc basically said you can use a 1h and torch, or 1h and shield, or 2h weapon; you decide what's best for the situation. If you insist on using a 2h all the time, then you are choosing to have to futz with the torch a lot, or wear the night helm.

Personally, I never take the night helm off. I like 2h weapons and I don't like the night helm having a open neck, But I feel the value of the helm and not messing with the torch is worth it to never have to switch away from my 2h weapon. Until I get the night helm I use a 1h weapon and torch, short sword < morning star < warhammer = bar mace < arming sword; with that priority list. I don't use shields.

I want more light sources too. But I can't agree that a 2h weapon and torch together is believable. Learn to use more than one weapon

 

[Gsprfdude]

A 5 to 7 foot weapon balanced on you shoulder while you run through a foreign-pooly-lit-enemy-filled-under-constuction-setup-for-siege-while-looking-for-keys-and-traps-and-other-hazards while holding a torch does not make sense. Especially because you can't strap a torch to a shield (game balance).

Madoc answered this with a meta-game reason, and while that's not normally the deciding factor (it would seem), it was in this case. More reach is superior to less, this isn't a play style it's a fact.

But you're just being delusional if you think that when you put all the variables together that you can safely sprint around with a two handed weapon and torch.

I don't really see how I'm being delusional by saying that you could hold a sword and a torch at the same time. Your example of the setting we're in being poorly lit is exactly why you would want a torch in the first place. The average longsword wasn't even over 5 feet long, and was barely 4.5 feet long in total. They weren't designed in more practical cases to be much longer than the ground to your armpit. If you look at the animations of a character holding a two handed weapons they lightly rest it on their shoulder, and tighten their grip as they run with the other hand. While this would certainly stable the sword as you run its by no means neccesary. I've dabbled with medieval weapons similar to the ones seen in game and all one has to do is level the sword lower on their shoulder and clench their fist more. The only thing I really find delusional here is that you think someone couldn't use both arms to hold two objects and then drop one when they come into contact with an enemy.

Moving on, I thought I had made it pretty clear in my earlier post that you are pretty safe while wielding one of these, but I guess not. So I guess I'll make it clear now, you would have to be going full retard to impale yourself on your own sword. At all times except when you are swinging it, the sword tip is pointed about 1-2 feet above your head. The only way it would impale you is if the sword was already pointing at you before you fell (which again theres never a reason it should) or if you had a seizure as you fell.

These swords weren't as big as most people thought they were. As I said earlier the more practical ones (which by all accounts on my end, the standard longsword appears to be) were rarely over 5 feet. The dungeons we are in rarely get to elevations where the ceiling would brush these weapons and even if they did people more than 500 years ago had already found a solution to the problem. All someone would have to is lower how high up they are holding the sword on their shoulder and its problem solved. It doesn't even sacrifice further mobility by doing so. An easy refute for this argument would be that we never really see the characters doing that. But I believe that what Madoc said falls squarely in line here, about not showing something because its implicit. Common sense would tell you that if you were carrying a pole on your shoulder and it was hitting a doorway above you that you would just lower it some and go through. We're meant to assume that our characters are not touched in the head and have the sense to do so.

The only way your arguments really make sense is if we assume that the swords weigh more than they do, and are longer than they are (delusional?). I'm not sure if you are mistaken, but I'd like to think that you're confusing most swords with the qualities of the Zweihänders which were the main weapons of old Germany. These are the only real over-proportioned swords I can think of that were used, and were pretty effective in battle. They were on average about 6ft long in total and despite their large size were still kept under 8 pounds on average. If someone was using one of these than admittedly they would be very hard to manuever, even with their exceptional weight.

All in all I would say the torch is more dangerous to your health than the swords used in game would be in your hands. Having fire that close to your face and hair is never really a good thing but hey we're working with the statement made by Madoc on implicity, so I think we can all give it a break. The most dangerous thing about falling in the game (other than pits, and brain trauma) would be landing square on your torch. Which if we're being honest would be a problem whether you were using a two-handed or a one-handed weapon regardless. The only way I can see these swords proving to be a problem is in very tight corridors (which could be mitigated if an option to "half-sword" was added) or if the laws of physics are ass backwards in this world, which by all accounts they are not (ignoring some bugs that the good developers have been adamant in fixing). I'll be including some pictures of Zweihänders for reference btw. For the record I'm pretty sure just to find our way around in the dark we did have to learn to use other weapons, our point is that we shouldn't have to not have a torch out because its holding us to unrealistic standards

 

[Solinarius]

I'm mostly thinking about the future. I honestly can't say how I would react if torch management was still in its current state 2 or 3 years from now. I'd be stupefied if there wasn't a keyed action or some elegant method that drops items that are currently in hand. What I don't understand is how the current method doesn't annoy the piss out of everyone, especially Madoc.

Here's how I see it: dropping something is as simple as opening your hand, but to pick something up you may have to crouch or bend over, then you take hold of the object and put it on your person. Clicking on things and dragging them to your character makes sense. Forever having to aim the mouse at the object you're already holding, then dragging it to the floor to drop it is insane.

In case the above wasn't clear, here is my primary beef with the torch/in hand management:
- In order to drop a held item, you have to precisely click it in the paperdoll, then drag it to the ground (and let's not forget that the ground can be picky about where you drop things!)

Maybe my qualms will become a non-issue once the paperdoll goes away, but you better believe that I'm completely serious when I say the torch annoys me. Darkness, and darkness alone, should be what makes light management a hassle, not the god damned controls.

 

[-Tim-]

If we're talking future, I would prefer to see finite torches with which one can light (wall-mounted or no) braziers and the like. I'm also a fan of the easy dropping idea, it makes sense and enhances gameplay.
@Solinarius A less frustrating way to get your torch on the ground quickly is by equipping a two-handed weapon to make your torch move to the inventory and then drag from there.

 

[Madoc]

It's not really that much of a meta game thing, I think it just makes sense. People didn't really carry two handed weapons around and use them in all situations because they're cumbersome and require both your hands. It seems like a perfectly sensible compromise for using a huge powerful weapon. Trying to to find and justify ways in which you could do anything while carrying a halberd and a torch at once seems a bit besides the point. It might be possible, but I don't think it's really practical either way. Some two handed weapons might be easier than others, but we're not going to make exceptions on a per weapon basis, and where do you draw the line? When does the argument about what is and isn't possible end? I'm also a little concerned that just randomly dropping the torch would result in it being lost.

Personally I never put the torch on the ground for light and I forego the luxury of a two handed weapon when I need light. I like that I have to choose the right weapon for the job, that I might need to manage the circumstances of a more challenging fight. With weapon swapping this will become much, much easier, then there's the helm and light thaumaturgy is coming too.

 

[konggary]

Occam's razor

 

[-Tim-]

Occam's razor

Lol, I read this and spent a full five minutes wondering how you thought Occam's razor would apply to this discussion. Edit: nevermind, I got it all wrong. I still don't get it

 

[konggary]

Lol, I read this and spent a full five minutes wondering how you thought Occam's razor would apply to this discussion. I had no idea it's a weapon in DS

It's not a weapon in DS-
What I meant is that, while wielding a 2h weapon in Exanima, your left arm is just flopping around uselessly until combat begins. Perhaps the most obvious solution to a lack of light is the best: Why not just jam a torch in that free hand, a la Dark Souls? "What happens when you start combat and need the left hand" you may be asking. The answer is simple: it depends on how the devs have implemented quick-switching.

And I think that the whole idea of not using a 2h weapon because you can't use a torch with it defeats the whole purpose of different builds. Rather than "-no torch" being a trait associated with a 2h, I'd rather see it balanced with the normal "-heavy -large" traits. Eliminating a build for such a simple thing goes against the whole "open rpg" feel of the game...

 

[Greenbrog]

You use both hands to hold a 2h weapon when running and sprinting. You're being inaccurate when you say you don't use 2 hands to hold 2h weapons.

Madoc has weighed in twice now.

Occam's razor of the most simple solution being to most likely would be more. Light is supposed be be a resource you have to manage, 2h weapons are better than 1h weapons , you need 2h to use 2h weapons; therfore you use a torch with 1h weapons.

 

[konggary]

This is what I was trying to argue against: we don't need arbitrary difficulty and situationalism for the 2-handed weapons. This team has gone out of their way to eliminate "invisible walls" and such unrealistic game cliches, but apparently using your free hand for this useful resource makes it way too easy. Let the player use their tools instead of "well shit it's dark here, better change my skill tree to use 1h better"

Finally, 2h isn't necessarily better than 1h.