Weapon sheath on the character?

[XxBoDxX]

Well, I've said it before, I'll say it again.

A 1/3rd sheath like that is going to fall apart, the design is not even remotely close to the simple durability of a wood and leather one-piece scabbard.

Its going to get rainwater running down the blade (especially a fullered blade) and collecting in the bottom of the sheath, damaging the blade. As it would be medieval leather, it would have to be vegetanned leather, not a chrome-tan - an entirely modern process. That contains tannins, which will chemically react with iron/steel, making the blade get stained black in areas it touched. if the leather's wet, it will corrode the steel significantly; active rusting. If the weather wet it will also deform and warp, because there's no underlying structure to it, like a proper scabbard.

Because its an all-leather construction, there's no support for the bottom of the sheath, meaning when its drawn, it flops all over the place. Due to the length, that's going to end up tangling between the user's legs, getting in the way. That's a common problem that reenactors who use soft leather sheaths, instead of rigid wooden-cored scabbards, by the way. And that's very much also something you really don't want in a real fight when your life's at stake. You also dont want something that's attached over your shoulder with great big hooks on it that are screaming "use me as a grappling point" to your opponent, who can use the stuff you're wearing to your disadvantage.

Then there's the whole space issue. to draw over the shoulder means you're going to have to turn the blade at shoulder height. lets say for simplicity, you're 1m 80, and the sword blade is 1.10m long, with a 40cm hilt Well, I just did a quick check with a 14th C longsword that's got a 97cm blade... and I hit the 2.5m high ceiling. If you're in a rush, you need to easily have a 3m ceiling height to practically draw over the shoulder (plus a metre of clear space behind you), or you're going to be hitting the roof. Now ingame we might not have a ceiling, but I cant really envisage the gloomy dungeons of SG and Exanima are blessed with high, bright airy ceilings in every corridor...
Outdoors it would be fine. But guess what? Outdoors, you can use a normal scabbard, and carry it on your horse.



When drawn, it will also lose rigidity, meaning it makes it utterly impractical to sheath. Unless you're wanting to play "stab myself in the back of the leg" while poking around blindly like a drunken virgin, you're left having to unstrap the thing, turn it round so its facing your front, use both hands, one holding your sword, the other the scabbard and thread the tip into the gap for the bottom part of the sheath, then line up the top, notch it over these two oversized hooks, and secure it. then take the assembly, sling it over the shoulder, and tighten up the baldric so you dont have it slip.

Or... you just prop it on your shoulder. Hmm. I wonder which is more practical?

And, all, meanwhile, while the contraption fails to provide any actual protection for the edge of the weapon, or protection from the elements - the two most important elements of the purpose of a scabbard. In this regard, its about as much use as a chocolate teapot.

That's what I mean that it wont work.


Its not about applying a historical setting to a fantasy world, its about the fact that if things are being used, they have to actually do the job. and those scabbards simply dont work. (Aside from the aesthetic horrors of tartan-clad renfair cockwombles). If it works in a historically plausible manner, that's just a bonus for my tastes.

This is for a game were talking about here. You know that right? Whats the point of playing a low fantasy game if everything is going to be so realistic you cant have fun? Ill stick to real life if games become so realistic they get boring.

I appreciate your passion though. Its amazing man. Do you make these or something? I would love to see some of your work if so.

 

[Greenbrog]

Exactly. A game. A game we would like to play. Which requires finishing. And the more things keep getting added, keeps adding time. Obviously, more game equals more game, but when does it start to be less game? Adding something because it "looks cool" isn't always a reason to add it, especially in a game like this.

At this point, I'd rather have more real content, so if not doing something adds reality. Then less is more.

 

[J.G. Elmslie]

This is for a game were talking about here. You know that right? Whats the point of playing a low fantasy game if everything is going to be so realistic you cant have fun? Ill stick to real life if games become so realistic they get boring.

I appreciate your passion though. Its amazing man. Do you make these or something? I would love to see some of your work if so.

If anything, I've been fairly consistently saying "if you're going to do fantasy, go all out batshit crazy". I'd like to see whalebone armour from Tinglit Inuit tribes, Egyptian khopeshes, Japanese pagoda castles of wood, Khmer temples, all sorts of crazy stuff used as the inspiration for a fantasy world, instead of the same, old tired European 14-16thC mash-up that happens in every fantasy.

The thing that I've constantly emphasised however, is, if they're going to use 14-16th C European weapons and armour, then they need to understand how those weapons and armour worked. (well, same goes if they were using Khopesh and Han Dynasty Crossbows and Ji. You need to understand how things work, in a game which is defined by its use of real-world physics in the motion control, or things just don't work right. Its a bit like making a driving game, giving full tyre modelling with slip angle, heat, wear, etc, and sticking in a jet-pack and wondering why it doesn't quite work in a sane way...) and part of that understanding is, that objects work in particular ways; leather was made in a certain way, and so wasn't used much for clothing (would you wear something that was soaked in liquid shit for 6 months while it tanned on your head? I wouldn't....), swords are made certain ways because of the limitations of the steel - a Viking sword is very different to a 16th C two-hander not just because the Vikings made one, and a renaissance German made the other, but because there's distinct technological processes that the Vikings didn't have, that made the two-hander as impossible as them making a space shuttle. Swords are sharpened, so they don't work well against armour, etc.

Understanding the processes, the reality of the objects will, in a way, ground the setting design in reality. Otherwise, you run the risk of it just going into "hey, its fantasy, who gives a shit?" mentalities which result in horribly tired old tropes repeated again and again...

And yes, I am a professional sword-smith and a historical consultant (with previous videogame titles under my belt).

here's the sort of stuff I create:
A 16th C "langes messer"

Spoiler

that one shows the hand-forged wrought iron, rather than modern steel used:

Spoiler

A 15th C rondel dagger

Spoiler

 

[tiny lampe]

Whats the point of playing a low fantasy game if everything is going to be so realistic you cant have fun?

Different strokes for different folks. The more realistic things look and behave the more fun I have.

 

[Zoltan]

@J.G. Elmslie

I will start saying that I respect your background and deep knowledge on the subject, that done I have also to say that your comparisons are a tad over the top.

Even with the very competent persons behind the development of that game, I don't believe they will succeed (or even attempt) to make into the game-play a realistic difference between similar shaped weapons, I don't see how they could.

The real world workmanship, quality of leather, wood, wear & tear, etc. Can't translate into simple game mechanics where objects are expressed in half bullets.
The allowed movements using weapons are basics even taking into account thrust to come, whatever the weapon you have result in the same animation modified slightly by the maneuverability.

The point is; All that is far from a simulation, but you know what? That doesn't matter it is still very enjoyable, it wouldn't be less good if the developers where to use some shortcuts or slightly inaccurate objects as long as the overall is feeling great and logical.

 

[Bullethead]

I'd much prefer if two handed sword and polearms were carried around on the shoulder, and then you could carry your torch in the other hand. Once you go into combat mode by pressing tab, your character would drop their torch and grip their weapon with both hands......

This IMHO is the best idea yet. It solves the main gameplay issue with 2H weapons (you can't even walk around with a torch while having one equipped) and it avoids the reality problems of non-historical sheaths.

 

[Guibou9]

I love the idea of sheathing the weapons, makes more sense to me. No matter how they do it, I hope they do for Sui Generis. I don't really see much use for it in Exanima though since we don't really encounter friendly NPCs or explore towns... plus it would have to be something we find before being able to use it.. I mean Sheathe don't magically appear right?

Also about ''Non-historical'' sheathe and stuff... Who cares? Historical or not as long as it makes sense, I mean we battle skeletons, zombies and demons plus we use magical powers.. That doesn't sound very historical to me.

 

[Greenbrog]

Sheaths make sense because tv and games say they do. Personally I hope this element stays as real as possible.

 

[Guibou9]

Sheaths make sense because tv and games say they do. Personally I hope this element stays as real as possible.

Never certain if you're sarcastic or not. But how is sheathing a 1h sword not real? I get that sheathing a 2h sword doesn't make sense... but for 1h weapons.

 

[Tyon]

Sheaths make sense because tv and games say they do. Personally I hope this element stays as real as possible.

If you're talking about sheathes for two handed swords then I completely agree.

This is more of a suggestion for Sui Generis, but I think you shouldn't be allowed to walk around a city brandishing something like a poleaxe unless you're part of the army of that city. I think Kingdom Come has a similar feature where the guards will confront you and tell you to put your weapon away or possibly arrest you.

 

[Don Kanaille]

Again, not a single user has made an argument that something shouldn´t be in the game because it is not historical. Everyone here knows that Exanima and Sui Generis are fantasy games. However, plenty of people are against things that don´t make sense, e.g. quickdraw-backsheathes for twohanders.
History is only ever brought up as an indicator. We don´t think our ancestors were stupid, and if they had to deal with something in their daily lifes, they very likely put much more thought into it than we ever could. Thus, if they did (or did not) things in a certain way there are usually very good reasons for it, which typically apply in a fantasy setting just as well as in real-world history.

example: horned helmets
argument: (almost) nobody in history (especially not vikings) used horned helmets in battle
what the argument is not about: "don´t add them because SG should only contain real world items"
what the argument is actually about: horns and similar ornaments on the helmet interfere with a helmet´s main purpose, which is deflecting blows; instead a horn may actually catch a blow and transfer the whole power of the attack right into the wearer´s neck, potentially causing serious injury or death
does that reason still hold up in the world of Sui Generis: yes
ergo horned helmets don´t make sense and should not be added




Also, I don´t think anyone has ever said something against sheates for reasonably sized swords per se, other than that there are more urgend things to add to the game first.

 

[Guibou9]

Again, not a single user has made an argument that something shouldn´t be in the game because it is not historical. Everyone here knows that Exanima and Sui Generis are fantasy games. However, plenty of people are against things that don´t make sense, e.g. quickdraw-backsheathes for twohanders.
History is only ever brought up as an indicator. We don´t think our ancestors were stupid, and if they had to deal with something in their daily lifes, they very likely put much more thought into it than we ever could. Thus, if they did (or did not) things in a certain way there are usually very good reasons for it, which typically apply in a fantasy setting just as well as in real-world history.

example: horned helmets
argument: (almost) nobody in history (especially not vikings) used horned helmets in battle
what the argument is not about: "don´t add them because SG should only contain real world items"
what the argument is actually about: horns and similar ornaments on the helmet interfere with a helmet´s main purpose, which is deflecting blows; instead a horn may actually catch a blow and transfer the whole power of the attack right into the wearer´s neck, potentially causing serious injury or death
does that reason still hold up in the world of Sui Generis: yes
ergo horned helmets don´t make sense and should not be added




Also, I don´t think anyone has ever said something against sheates for reasonably sized swords per se, other than that there are more urgend things to add to the game first.

1. Like I said in my post ''As long as it makes sense''. I simply pointed the fact that it doesn't matter if it's historical or not, what makes sense... makes sense. Never said anything else. I understand that you use history as an indicator, I believe that like ''our ancestors'', I'm not completely stupid. Also I've never said any user made an argument that because something isn't historically accurate it shouldn't be in the game, I simply stated that historical or not it doesn't matter, the idea seemed awesome and we shouldn't start dismissing it for historical reasons rather than reason itself, and I don't think it's unreasonable.

2. Talking about something being reasonable, I did say that a sheath for a 2 handed weapon didn't really make sense just pointed out that a sheath for a 1 handed weapon or if you prefer ''reasonably sized swords'' is totally realistic and when I said ''But how is sheathing a 1h sword not real?'' I was replying to Greenbrog's statement which I still can't tell if it was sarcastic or not - Sheaths make sense because tv and games say they do. -. In my opinion, they make sense because I don't want my character walking around town with his one handed sword, axe, mace in the open while talking to every npc because it just seems rude and aggressive, I couldn't care less for what TV or other games say/do... That's really just how I see it. Pretty sure that someone carrying a weapon out in a market place ''historically speaking'' wasn't something people liked. Unless, like other users mentioned, they were guards or soldiers from that place. I still think that applies today, no problem seeing a cop with a gun though if you see some random dude walking with his gun in the middle of the street you might feel a little uncomfortable.

3. I'm sure there's a ton of more important things for the devs to add... Yet it doesn't mean we can't discuss this. It seems to me like it's a good idea for Sui Generis and if not added now, then let it be later when there's already more content.

 

[Greenbrog]

You're very focused on sheaths. That's one weapon type. What about your bow, or you mace, or your hammer. Maybe eventually they will get around for a niche element (as it has to work under proper physics), but it's a lot of work for only one weapon type.

Edit: This comment was more that, things like this really only add immersion, and while nice; should be way down the list. Personally, while I don't care about sheaths, things like it, fluff, world colour, that kind of thing, I hope eventually it's all they have to do and we just get content, until then.

 

[Guibou9]

You're very focused on sheaths. That's one weapon type. What about your bow, or you mace, or your hammer. Maybe eventually they will get around for a niche element (as it has to work under proper physics), but it's a lot of work for only one weapon type.

You're right, but yeah I really like the style of sheaths in general, it just adds to the game *(for me anyways). I'm sure there's other ways to deal with other weapon types as well, but I'm not too familiar with this.

 

[Tyon]

You're very focused on sheaths. That's one weapon type. What about your bow, or you mace, or your hammer. Maybe eventually they will get around for a niche element (as it has to work under proper physics), but it's a lot of work for only one weapon type.

There are holsters for smaller bows http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/anysia/1140705/203570/203570_640.jpg For larger bows however, I'm not sure, maybe they could be treated as a two-handed weapon. For one-handed maces and axes, I think they were hung on the belt, not too sure honestly.

 

[Don Kanaille]

1. Like I said in my post ''As long as it makes sense''. [...]

I wasn´t trying to argue with you or attack your statements. Just a little clarification.

Actually, I agree with you for the most part, so sorry if it seemed harsh. I even made the same "holster your weapon or give it to the guards in town" suggestion way earlier in this thread. Looks like a misunderstanding.

 

[Guibou9]

I wasn´t trying to argue with you or attack your statements. Just a little clarification.

Actually, I agree with you for the most part, so sorry if it seemed harsh. I even made the same "holster your weapon or give it to the guards in town" suggestion way earlier in this thread. Looks like a misunderstanding.

No worries man, I totally get it, it's always more clear in a conversation. Forum posts always seem to lack clarity XD I'm rarely clear when I post, gotta re-read that shit a couple times.

@Greenbrog : I totally agree with your edit* and I get that they have a lot more stuff on their minds. I'd rather have the game functional and ready to be played than adding sheaths and what-not. We're just doing random suggestions right? Lol

 

[Tovias]

So thinking about sheaths something came to my mind.
Will there be a hotkey system in the game? I think it would be really cool if you could equip a limited number of items on your body, not in the inventory box but on your character, and you would be only able to use hotkeys to select said items.

 

[NachoDawg]

So thinking about sheaths something came to my mind.
Will there be a hotkey system in the game? I think it would be really cool if you could equip a limited number of items on your body, not in the inventory box but on your character, and you would be only able to use hotkeys to select said items.

I dont have the quote at hand, but there's going to be a button to swap between 2 equipment sets as i understood it


like switching from 1h + shield -> bow&arrow

or 2h -> 1h + torch