What is 'low fantasy' exactly?

[The Urban Spaceman]

I keep coming across this term but it's one I'm not familiar with. Sui Generis features magic & fantasy creatures so where do you draw the line? Apparently potions with magical properties is over the line but I don't understand the logic. Can anyone give examples of other games that could be considered 'low fantasy'?

I guess I want to get a better picture of the devs vision so that i can better tune my thoughts & suggestions.

 

[calithlin]

Well, Fantasy is on a continuum. Imagine a line from point A to B, where A is normal life, and B is completely fantastical, fairy-tale. Dungeons and Dragons, Warcraft, Everquest, etc, lie close to B as 'High Fantasy.' Their worlds are defined by new fantastical creatures and magic being commonplace and part of everyday life.

Low fantasy are things like Game of Thrones, where magic and fantasy are almost more often hinted at and rarely shown. Where magic and fantasy touch the lives of the world and its characters subtly, but much of the world is defined by lots of real world solutions to problems and suffering and problems based in real world issues like hunger, energy/labor shortage, overcrowding etc that tend to be trivial in high fantasy settings with unlimited access to magic.

I hope that helps a little.

 

[calithlin]

Maybe to be a little more clear, high vs low fantasy depends on how common fantastic elements are and how aware the common person in the world is to fantastical forces at work.

In the Lord of the Rings, people tend to be well aware of magic, elves, dragons, and such, even if they might not see it all the time, they know well enough of it, and main characters are in constant contact with magical forces shaping their tale.
However, in low fantasy people would probably be amazed to see even a dragon skeleton, having heard legends of them perhaps, but many dismissing their existence as fabrication. Definitive use of magic would be looked on at with awe or outright feared. Magic potions and healing tonics that worked quickly would be unheard of miracles to all but the mightiest thaumaturge.

 

[The Urban Spaceman]

Ok yes I have it now. The definition. Thanks

 

[calithlin]

It does a little, thanks, but does that mean I should assume our character in Sui Generis is some kind of chosen one? One of only a few in the whole world capable of magic?

The developers have stated so far that, yes, our character is extraordinary in their ability to use thaumaturgic skills and how they revive in a set location when killed. It's my understanding that very few opponents will be met capable of thaumaturgey, and those that do are all part of a sect of powerful guardians that have lost their way in some sense, but rarely appear to normal people.

 

[TheScythian]

I keep coming across this term but it's one I'm not familiar with. Sui Generis features magic & fantasy creatures so where do you draw the line? Apparently potions with magical properties is over the line but I don't understand the logic. Can anyone give examples of other games that could be considered 'low fantasy'?

I guess I want to get a better picture of the devs vision so that i can better tune my thoughts & suggestions.

I probably shouldn't attempt to answer this since I'm not entirely sure myself, but I think low fantasy is typically based either entirely on the real world (i.e historical) or on a world that is generally recognisable as our own with only certain elements of fantasy (e.g witchcraft or other powers, like thaumaturgy). High fantasy tends to be set in its own universe (like the Elder Scrolls or Lord of the Rings) with a much greater level of non-real-world elements, if that makes sense. For instance I think Monty Python and the Holy Grail would be considered low fantasy since it has sorcerers and killer-rabbits but is loosely (very loosely) historical. I'm not sure where you'd draw the line though between high and low fantasy, seems fairly arbitrary.

.: Edit :. Sorry, reading that back I don't think I got any closer to explaining it than you did
.: Double-Edit :. Calithlin beat me to it and made more sense.

 

[The Urban Spaceman]

I have to point out that I type on a touchscreen so it takes me a long time!

Another thing I'm curious about is the repeated use of the word thaumaturgy in these forums. Ive never seen that word used in all my years of gaming. Is there a specific difference between thaumaturgy & magic?

 

[Tony Dye]

Different terms for a different concept. We're not using "magic" because we don't want to evoke the same ideas or contend with the same baggage. Using a less common term allows us to present an idea without players bringing preconceived notions to the table. We can stretch out and define the system in terms of what it is, rather than what it's not.

It also sounds cool.

 

[calithlin]

Different terms for a different concept. We're not using "magic" because we don't want to evoke the same ideas or contend with the same baggage. Using a less common term allows us to present an idea without players bringing preconceived notions to the table. We can stretch out and define the system in terms of what it is, rather than what it's not.

It also sounds cool.

I'm already imagining a grumpy old thaumaturge complaining: "You can't do that with thaumaturgy! What do you think this is, magic?!"

 

[The Urban Spaceman]

Yeah I like it. Good answer. Magician, Mage, Scorcerer, Demi-god. Using such words definitely results in preconceptions. Thaumaturge on the other hand. You have a clean slate there.

 

[Psychomorph]

I'm already imagining a grumpy old thaumaturge complaining: "You can't do that with thaumaturgy! What do you think this is, magic?!"

Good one! I think Bare Mettle should incorporate that somewhere in the game.

calithlin pretty much said it all. My definition of low-fantasy is a world that is inhabited by men, unlike the Lord of the Rings film where you have various races, but various fantasy creatures dwell in the hiding, or if among men than in disguise (witches).
There is no pure evil that tries to destroy the world, but magical evil (non-human, appears evil to man, hence "evil" the term used by men) and a very powerful one does exist in the world, but is never really seen and its motives are largerly unknown and because of this is often considered a myth.

It's a bit like in Thief. The pagan god, the Trickster, was believed in, not only by the worshippers but also by the opposing Hammer order. The main protagonist did not believe in it, too, untill he painfully discovered that the myth is real, but also has a real physical shape, so it is an ancient, very mighty creature, that by the way existed among men in disguise. That also brings an unanswered question - does the god of the Hammer order exist, too? Thief is low-fantasy, too. Did I already mention how much I love that game?

As you see questions and uncertainties are part of low-fantasy. In fact I believe low-fantasy is far more mysterious than high-fantasy, because in high-fantasy the magical is common and a normal thing, while in low-fantasy it is very exotic and unique and extremely thrilling. Also, if the magical things enter the domain of men (their normal every day life), it is a shock.

Conan (the film) is a good example of low-fantasy.

 

[Rod_Lightning]

Indeed 'tis a good example of low fantasy setting...

The movies sucks though lol

 

[Psychomorph]

You men the Conan films? Unfortunately I did not read the books, but saw the films. I think the first is quite nice, it captures that prehistoric low-fantasy feel and is very gritty. I think Arnold did a good job, considering he's not quite the actor.

The second film however.... let's just not speak about that, okay.

They're doing the third with Arnold as the "King of his own Kingdom", which I am looking forward to.

 

[Rod_Lightning]

I've read a deal of the comics. But idk man...The end fight is really cool in the first Conan film but the dialogue is brutal lol

I can appreciate it for what it is though.

 

[Zodeak]

They're doing the third with Arnold as the "King of his own Kingdom", which I am looking forward to.

Yeah its called "The Fight-back for the Governorship or California".

 

[Stahlin]

A friend explained high and low fantasy to me like this:

In high fantasy you have very clear factions, like good and evil. For example in Lord of the Rings, you have Sauron and Gandalf (and the elves) and of course some neutral or whatever.

But in low fantasy like game of thrones, everyone just has their own motives, and from their POV their actions seem just human. Even the noble guys like Edward Stark have some flaws in their past and so on.


As said before, this is just what a friend told me and is completly different to what I read before.
Maybe those too points often come together?

 

[Rod_Lightning]

Metal Gear Solid would be an example of a realistic game with low fantasy elements.

 

[Ruusunpuna]

It's easy to think of Lord of the Rings as a standard high fantasy world, but think about the use of magic for a second. Magical rings and other equipment are not for everyone. Gandalf uses magic mostly to light up places, he's not hurling fireballs every second. When he confronts the Balrog, he speaks:
- I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udun.
That's a lot more interesting than what you tend to see in games, because magic in LotR is actually quite rare.

 

[Cooper Holt]

The developers have stated so far that, yes, our character is extraordinary in their ability to use thaumaturgic skills and how they revive in a set location when killed. It's my understanding that very few opponents will be met capable of thaumaturgey, and those that do are all part of a sect of powerful guardians that have lost their way in some sense, but rarely appear to normal people.

Thamauturgy isn't that rare, but most people haven't seen much of it. For example, if you are in a huge battle and you use thamauturgy, people won't stop and stare in awe, but they will notice it and think about it.

 

[d0ct0rscarecr0w]

I think what they are probably trying to drive at (though I haven't been following the project as religiously as some) is that while the players character will be able to preform 'Thamauturgy' relying completely on magic as a weapon won't be possible.
An example would be like in Skyrim, sure Shouts are useful, but it would be very difficult to get through the game simply attacking with Shouts.