Why animations?

[Bram Stolk]

I'm disappointed by what was stated in the latest video.
Apparently there will be animations now?

I backed this project because of its full-physics approach to everything.
Why did you guys change course, and started to use animations?
A big let down I think.

Personally, I think it will also create more dev problems than it solves.
Now you have to constantly fuse the animation data with the physics data.
It will get murky.

 

[Tony]

I think you are confused. They are still going to use procedurally generated movements. What was stated in the last video is that some of the animations for these procedurally generated movements could be better since they are still using the ones that Madoc himself created. Madoc is not an animator so they would like to hire a professional animator to make the animations for the procedurally generated moves look more smooth.

 

[Bram Stolk]

I think you are confused. They are still going to use procedurally generated movements. What was stated in the last video is that some of the animations for these procedurally generated movements could be better since they are still using the ones that Madoc himself created. Madoc is not an animator so they would like to hire a professional animator to make the animations for the procedurally generated moves look more smooth.

That does not make sense to me.
If you generate the movement procedurally using physics, then you do not need animation data at all.

As soon as you start to incorporate animation data, the movements will be 'canned.'

100% physics based movement is possible, but extremely hard.
If you want to see what the real deal looks like:

I was rather surprised that Bare Mettle solved this hard problem, and very excited.
Now I begin to suspect it may not be a 100% physics approach, like the video above does accomplish.

Bram

 

[Tony]

Procedurally generated movements must still be animated. Those characters in the video you linked are animated. How this works is basically by setting joints and pivot points, similar to robotics. Then you calculate what impact objects will have on the predefined movement parts. So walking is an animation created using these pivot points and joints (predefined parts of the body that were assigned a set of rules of possible ways it can move). A professional animator can make things look more natural and smooth by tweaking these variables.

If you've watched any of the videos of Sui Generis you will notice that you're not seeing the same predefined animations playing over and over like in most games. Characters are reacting to weight of items when impacted, stepping and swinging differently based upon how they are currently positioned, etc. This is what procedurally generated means. They are reacting to their environment instead of performing the same predefined static animations over and over.

 

[Pilluminati]

Watch the kickstarter video again, nothing has changed since.

 

[Mello]

Indeed, the combat demo video said they would be looking to hire an animator.

 

[Sneil]

How do you think the character appears to put his body into to swinging a sword or change the speed of his leg movement and body motion from walking to running without predefined animations? If it was straight physics and no predefined animations for standing, walking etc, you'd have limp ragdolls lying on the ground doing nothing.

In the videos you posted those characters look pretty robotic and unnatural, better animations could make them appear much more real and natural while still reacting to their physical environment as they are doing nthe demo. Also in the demo it's the animations that separate the bipedal humans from the alien thing that sucks up the apple as it walks, otherwise how does the alien walk the way it does and the humans the way they do. And how do the arms decide to just raise into the air on the people? Anyway, I think I've made my point.

edit: actually sorry your videos are of a custom animation software combined with a physics engine. What the person in video is actually doing is animating. (for the record I'm just explaining how I understand it, I don't claim to be an expert on the subject )

 

[the0thMonkey]

I agree with Sneil.

While the videos are interesting, they are not purely physics. We can assume that they are physically realistic, but that does not mean that animation data is unnecessary. As Sneil pointed out, think about all the different ways a human body could move. Why did it choose to move in that particular way?

Furthermore, I would be highly impressed if the techniques used in that video were still feasible on uneven terrain, while running, and having giant ogres with flails attacking you. Although the videos were impressive, I'd be very surprised if that existed already. That's partly why SG is so awesome!

 

[calithlin]

If you generate the movement procedurally using physics, then you do not need animation data at all.

As soon as you start to incorporate animation data, the movements will be 'canned.'

If you want to see what the real deal looks like:
(videos)

Bram

Not true. In fact, in the videos you posted they -do- use pose information; in video 2 of 2 near the end they explain:

"A motion generator outputs target poses throughout the walk cycle and is used to produce different styles of motion."

Target Poses ARE 'animation' as you put it. That's what bare mettle means when they say they want an animator -- to provide more realistic target poses for their procedural physics system to animate through. The target poses give the posture of the characters, but they react to the environment through all their joints just like the video you linked.

A simpler version of this style is the same as how games like Dark Souls and Dragon's Dogma allow their characters' feet to never collide through stair steps etc, even when using animation targets. The animations are used first, but passed through additional functions that predict the world environment and clamp movement or apply new rotations to joints. That way, if a foot is going through a default animation heading towards a stair step, the physics engine will pass data through the character's skeleton telling the bone joints to stop moving when they have encountered an obstacle.

Source: Game design school, Unity Developer, & Game Developer's Conference 2012 - Animation Seminar

P.S.

Something those videos do bring up, however, may be a solution to the 'drunk' feet movements of the SG characters. 'Velocity tuning' may be what's necessary to help correct the 'drunk' or 'swimming' leg movement.

 

[Bram Stolk]

Target Poses ARE 'animation' as you put it. That's what bare mettle means when they say they want an animator -- to provide more realistic target poses for their procedural physics system to animate through. The target poses give the posture of the characters, but they react to the environment through all their joints just like the video you linked.

Thanks Calithlin,

You make some good points, it makes more sense now.
I just hope they use as much simulation over animation as possible.

I remember once attending a CG conference in HongKong where a Japanese researcher did muscle simulations on a walking biped. In real-time he could move a slider for muscle-strength in each limb, and by dragging a single slider to the left, the character immediately moved from a walk into a limp.

This is the kind of stuff that would be so valuable in a game like this.
If limping can be done in simulation, isn't that a 100 times better than having an artist make animation poses for limps? In simulation you can actually have gameplay (which muscle was struck by sword) affect a limp. More sim, less authoring would be my preference. Could give rise to some nice emergent behaviours as well.

Bram

 

[Ickorus]

If limping can be done in simulation, isn't that a 100 times better than having an artist make animation poses for limps? In simulation you can actually have gameplay (which muscle was struck by sword) affect a limp. More sim, less authoring would be my preference. Could give rise to some nice emergent behaviours as well.

I'm still really hoping for a Black Knight scenario.

"'Tis but a scratch!"