Running improvements and combat controls

Discussion in 'Announcements' started by Kieran, Nov 20, 2013.

  1. Psychomorph

    Psychomorph Insider

    Messages:
    334
    Great stuff. I love the mechanics, how you can control from which side you make the slash by using the cursor, click vs. hold, that blocking is not just a key press but needs to be guided, etc. Very nice.

    I like it how you can incorporate movement into the fighting in SG, close combat is always dynamic, if your attacks are too powerful, the enemy backs down which you need to counter with a forward movement while attacking, or else you won't reach him and give him time to recollect strength.

    Good job on these things.


    Thing about the movement is that it still looks like a puppet on strings. The running animation looks like the character is floating forward with the legs moving, a bit like in a low gravity environment, while in real life there is an up and down movement. This "bobbing" is what is missing.
    However, the way it looks also depends on the movement speed. A slow jog has a lot of bobbing, because every step is like a little jump up, while a fast run has visually far less torso bobbing.

    The thing that makes the characters act unnatural is really the constant torso movement when the character is standing after a turn or movement. It looks like the feet are attacked to the ground and the legs are springs and the body is bouncing back and forth. You can clearly see this right after an attack, real people don't do this, unless they are drunk and can't properly keep balance. This "drunk" look is still there. Try to limit the torso shifting during any movement, because people use their legs to limit this to not lose balance and fall. Bodies should be stable and movement look snappy.

    You can choose to settle with what you got, but as long as this is not addressed enough people will always remark on it. You will find no peace, mark my words, hehe.


    The overhead swing of the mace. I tried it with a stick with a weight on the end and I couldn't really raise it in front of me and attack, it feels faster and easier to move the weight behind me and the raising and striking movements are a single continuous, circle like movement. I don't really move my arm behind me, but rather rotate the wrist to move the weight on the end of the stick. If the left foot is forward than I move the weight right, raise it above the right shoulder and strike from above. You can also hold a shield in front of your body doing this that way. It's a single circular movement, because you want to avoid lifting that heavy weight, but whirl it around.
    If the right foot is forward and I hold the mace still with the right hand, I either make a step forward with the left foot, or a step backward with the right to do the above, or I keep the feet the way they are and move the mace over the left shoulder. Again a single circular movement.


    Aside these things everything looks great.
     
  2. fluffydino2000

    fluffydino2000 Insider

    Messages:
    615
    After watching again I noticed that for some weapons you cannot thrust and for some you cannot swing from overhead. Would it be possible to add a modifier key to allow for both since currently they both have the same controls? It just seems like one of those frustrating limitations games have for no real reason.
     
    Komuflage likes this.
  3. tiny lampe

    tiny lampe Insider

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    309
    I wouldn't say for no real reason. While it's true that a longsword could both be used for thrusting or chopping the same can't be said for a maces, axes, rapiers...In my opinion adding both 'special' moves to all weapons would be very unrealistic.
     
  4. fluffydino2000

    fluffydino2000 Insider

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    615
    Well, just because it's a bad idea to do it in a fight, doesn't mean you shouldn't allow the player to do it. It doesn't have to be effective or anything, just allow it to happen.

    In some cases, I'll admit, it is unrealistic. Thrusting with a war hammer would not only be stupid but probably quite difficult to actually do (physically). But thrusting, with a mace, in my opinion, should be allowed. And again, in now way am I suggesting that this is a wise move, but it's be nice to be able to try it.

    Putting in things that are never a good combat move is a good idea in itself because it adds to the amount a player can improve by.
     
  5. Elric von Rabenfels

    Elric von Rabenfels Insider

    Messages:
    297
    This is false.
    Maces, axes and sabres can be used for thrusting just fine.

    You cannot expect them to have as much piercing power as a weapon made for thrusting, but it does work just fine - I'll admit that thrusting a hammer into the torso of an armoured man is not going to do much, but thrusting at the HEAD is very effective with almost every weapon. I'll post up a video of me thrusting with an axe and a hammer tomorrow.

    Thrusts (almost) always have ALOT of power behind them, are very quick, and hard to parry or evade. They are just unable to -penetrate- armour with weapons not designed for thrusting, but penetration is not everything, we must keep blunt trauma and force of impact in mind. Another fun fact: Many hammers and axes had a top spike.

    It's definitely not stupid to thrust with any weapon - it might not be useful in as many situations as a weapon made for thrusting is, but if the moment is right, a powerful thrust from the blunt top of a warhammer to the head can be devastating.

    They should not be underestimated, but useless against good body (excluding the head) armour with weapons not made for thrusting.

    I am absolutely in favour of having a key to switch from thrusting to overheads.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2013
  6. fluffydino2000

    fluffydino2000 Insider

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    615
    Well that settles that discussion. Elric has spoken!
     
  7. tiny lampe

    tiny lampe Insider

    Messages:
    309
    Indeed.

    And very much looking forward to this video Elric!
     
    fluffydino2000 likes this.
  8. Elric von Rabenfels

    Elric von Rabenfels Insider

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    297
    I'd do it right now, but my lady would go all "It's Saturday afternoon! Don't make such a ruckus, are you MAD? Also, dinner is ready, HAVE DINNER WITH ME." :D
     
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  9. Tessaya

    Tessaya Insider

    Messages:
    70
    I'd imagine it'll be as powerful as the running shield thrust we've seen in some of your other videos; I knew of the move, but not of its efficiency and it's quite scary honestly xD
     
  10. Lathspell

    Lathspell Member

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    102
    ok, what about movement, and evasion moves? as it seems if I choose 1 handed weapons shields would be somewhat mandatory
     
  11. Scarecrow

    Scarecrow Insider

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    498
    Having a key that switches from thrusts to overhead sounds great, allows for more diversity in fights. Either a key you press once to switch, or a key that you press and hold which alters the "special move" would be nice.
     
  12. BigT2themax

    BigT2themax Insider

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    270
    Yeah, we're probably going to need some sort of way of deciding what type of attack we want to do, whether it be an overhead swing or a stab or however else we might need to swing or attack. Plus, how are we going to do special moves involving dual weilding or using a shield in some way or another (like, a shield bash or something)?

    The combat is pretty awesome as it is, but there's a lot of things that I'm confused about, and I've no idea how some things are going to be implemented, if they are at all.
     
  13. Komuflage

    Komuflage Insider

    Messages:
    1,005
    Honestly, the easiest way and imo the best way, is to just ad modifier keys. (Shift, Ctrl, Alt)
    Wana overhead swing? LMB
    Wana Thrust? Shift LMB
    Wana Shield bash? Alt LMB
    and so on (and ofc this would be rebindable)

    It's how it works in most games, and it's a solid system; you got full control, and you don't need to click stupid combinations in order to perform specific moves.
     
    Rob, BigT2themax and Sony Black like this.
  14. tiny lampe

    tiny lampe Insider

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    309
    I'd like to make two points, one more specific, another one more general:

    The specific one: if a move can be triggered contextually, I'd prefer that over a button press. A good example is the shield bash. If you want to hit an opponent with your shield, and considering that you automatically keep your shield up when not attacking, just charge at your opponent and you will shield-bash him.

    The more general one: in my opinion, combat in Sui Generis has never been about giving the player a big range of moves for each weapon. The point of the combat, what makes it stand out, is that the player needs skill to transform a swing (of any kind) into an effective attack. Quoting Madoc:

    This idea of having to coordinate attacking and moving to create effective blows is what combat in this game is all about. I would even say that while most melee games are about attacking (opponents are easy to hit and there is a great variety of attacks to hit them with) Sui Generis is about movement (opponents are hard to hit and the point is to use your footwork intelligently to remain alive and empower your swings, whatever they look like). Quoting Madoc again:

    After all that the question is: is it worth it to complicate the control system to add more ways to swing your weapon? What do these extra maneuvers add to the experience? In my opinion they would add very little.
     
  15. fluffydino2000

    fluffydino2000 Insider

    Messages:
    615
    Well, they add strategy and skill, in my opinion. Because the attacks are in no way more powerful, and skilful in themselves, they don't detract from anything. Also, it's not as if with great skill, you could achieve an overhead swing or thrust with just a normal attack. So until that's possible, not having these alternate attacks would detract from the combat experience.

    I see your point though, and it is a very valid one. Although, I think it applies more to things like lunging slashes and whatnot being separate attacks (I'm aware that they're not). If instead of stepping/dashing forward whilst attacking you just pressed Q, it would dilute the system.
     
  16. Komuflage

    Komuflage Insider

    Messages:
    1,005
    Short answer; Yes I do think so.
    The more control you've over your character the better (Imo) the experience will be.
    The fact that you can actually chose Left to Right or Right to Left swings is awesome.
    Adding overhead swings just makes it better, more diverse.

    However, why should we have to chose whatever we want to be able to perform over head swings, or Thrusts?
    Why not have both?

    If, by just adding 1 extra key, can make the combat even more diverse, then why not?

    If they also could ad moves for hitting the enemy with the hilt of the sword, then even better.
     
  17. tiny lampe

    tiny lampe Insider

    Messages:
    309
    The thing for me is if this diversity boils down to mere cosmetics or if is there any gameplay element that gets enhanced by having more ways to swing.

    A thrust for example adds to the gameplay because it allows you to hit specific body zones with pin-point accuracy. That's great.

    Choosing whether to start with left-to-right swings or with right-to-left swings is neat but I don't know if it can make any difference. It could make a difference with halberds for example, because some of them have a blade in one side and a hammer in the other. Then swinging one way would mean hitting the opponent with the blade and swinging the other would mean hitting him with the blunt part.

    If adding extra ways to swing opens up new possibiities like the ones above then I'm all for it. If it's just cosmetics though I'm not sure it's worth it.
     
  18. Sakonosolo

    Sakonosolo Member

    Messages:
    9
    All the combat is physics based so of course it would affect gameplay. If your opponent is leaning one way for instance and you come in with a swing from the other side it should knock him over for instance.
     
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  19. Komuflage

    Komuflage Insider

    Messages:
    1,005
    No one is suggesting only cosmetic moves :p

    The choice between Left to Right or Right to Left is already in the game (As demonstrated by the video)
    And I can already think of a few situations were this will make a big difference.

    And as Sakonosolo mentions, due to the physics, no swings will be merely cosmetic.

    The overhead strike is already in the game, as well as a thrust move.
    Point was, that instead of Swords having thrusts, and Maces (clubs) having overhead strike, why not get both.
    Same thing with the shield, if I can use it to block, why not let me bash it against my foe?
     
  20. fluffydino2000

    fluffydino2000 Insider

    Messages:
    615
    The difference between a thrust and an overhead swing is far from cosmetic. And the differences between those and slash is also far from cosmetic.

    In fact, anything cosmetic in this game actually affects combat, it's impossible for it not to. A chair could be caught in the path of a war-hammer and career into your opponent knocking them down, that chair is far from cosmetic.

    And again, I see your point, some times, things are added to games that don't do anything but complicate the controls. But the controls, imo, aren't complicated. And by adding one modifier key (which may well be used for a variety of things) won't complicate it further.

    The shield charging point is a good one, but it's not quite doable. You can't raise the shield, so you can't charge that effectively. And, it'd be nice to be able to just swing with your shield instead of just run with it.

    The way I see it, pommel striking and shield bashing are just little extra things that would add an extra layer of complexity to the game. Something that would be pointless adding, would be a button which would allow you to dodge automatically or something. That is achievable with the current controls so adding another button doesn't achieve anything.

    And plus, a lot of these "techniques" can help to flesh out the milestone choices for Light and Heavy Weapons. I imagine there are all sorts of different ways of wielding two weapons at once, but all we've really seen is there being used to swing in the same direction at once. Maybe it'll be impossible to do anything but that with just clicking and click then holding. So maybe you'll need modifier keys and milestones to swing your weapons in opposite directions etc.
     
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