Update #28: Update #28

Discussion in 'Announcements' started by Kieran, Jun 18, 2014.

  1. Komuflage

    Komuflage Insider

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    Quick question, is dismemberment still going to be in the game, or have you decided to skip it? (Haven't seen it being mentioned in quite a while)
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2014
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  2. turtleman155

    turtleman155 Insider

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    only used in specific situations of course such as people hiding in a house find someone you killed already then send their flaming corpse into the house to flush them out :D also would be cool if people recognized the zambies as the people they were before you resurrected them :D
     
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  3. Elric von Rabenfels

    Elric von Rabenfels Insider

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    One more thing I would like to note:

    I haven't noticed you going down that road yet, but please keep mind clothing was almost always made out of CLOTH. That means fabrics like linen and (sheeps) wool.

    People did not wear leather much at all, except for boots, belts and the likes.
    But clothíng in general should be made of CLOTH, not leather. That's a fantasy cliché.

    A small anecdote about how leather was made back then, and why you didn't want to wear it on your body:

    Modern leather is chrome-alum tanned, a chemical that preserves. Back then it was vegatable-tannin tanned, a process which involved soaking the half-rotting hides in reeking water that can best be described as an open sewer.

    And then soaking them for 2-3 months in that, then as long again in pits of water and bark chips, while the leather tanned...

    Not the sort of stuff you'd want to wear on your body, really...
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2014
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  4. Tony

    Tony Moderator

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    Do you know something about the lore which I do not? I think which materials are used and how people/other races dress in Sui Generis is going to be based heavily upon the setting. Bare Mettle has been very vague about specific details regarding the setting and lore of Sui Generis so it would be hard to say what would or would not be appropriate until we know more.

    This is true for some time periods and in certain regions but definitely is not true universally. For hundreds of years (since pre-historic times) many Native American tribes would use brains (and other tanning methods) to tan deer hides in order to make them soft enough to use as clothing.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2014
  5. Elric von Rabenfels

    Elric von Rabenfels Insider

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    I know enough about their general focus and design direction to -assume- that their main focus and inspiration is late medieval Western Europe, with influences from the north and Eastern Europe. I haven't heard of any non-human races that wear clothing at all yet, so my assumption is that the general citizen will be designed like a European citizen of the time. And that citizen, in his culture and society, would -not- want to wear -that- kind of leather as clothing.


    Absolutely true, but their culture is fundamentally different from the "main" culture which seems to be settled in the game's continent - The typical late medieval European person wouldn't want to wear leather tanned in brains, and I wonder if Native Americans are going to be represented at all. ;)
     
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  6. Tony

    Tony Moderator

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    Well, despite being inspired by a certain time period it does not mean that the game will incorporate the same methodology, customs and culture that was present in our own history. Obviously the game will have new beings and creatures that do not exist on Earth and the events which occur will also vary greatly from our own history. Customs, culture and methodology in Sui Generis should reflect the game's setting, not a time period in our own history.

    As far as non-human races that wear clothing look at this video at 30 seconds in:

    If that creature is intelligent enough to craft and adorn armor then I'm assuming clothing would be a trivial thing.

    Again, I don't think Native Americans will be represented in Sui Generis just as Europeans will not be represented in the game. There may be races that are more primitive and share some similarities with Native Americans, just as some humans in the game will share some similarities with Europeans; however, both Europeans and Native Americans are not going to be present in the game so making assumptions based upon how Europeans did things is going a bit far in my opinion.

    If "primitive" Native Americans can discover a way to make leather soft and usable as clothing then who is to say that people in Sui Generis did not discover a method as well? Why must they use tanning methods that some Europeans did? This is being too restrictive by basing the game off of our own history instead of the history and lore of Sui Generis.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2014
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  7. Elric von Rabenfels

    Elric von Rabenfels Insider

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    If you let a culture inspire you, simply taking one thing won't do it. The very essence of it's culture is in a piece of art, for example, medieval armour, culture and customs dicated how it ended up looking and working.

    Just taking, as example, that piece of armour and ignore the ENTIRE culture built around it is horrible, and destroys the piece, unless it's supposed to be that mystical artifact made by that alien race.
    If you let a culture inspire you, you don't just pick a few toppings and eat them, you need the base to really enjoy and experience it.

    That is why I, going by their choice of armour and enviroment design, assume, that their world is based heavily on Western Europe of the medieval periods. I'm not going to back down on this opinion. I'm not a dev, I don't get to make the decision.

    But I certainly have the right of opposing the overused idea of "muddyevil" design, blending many cultures into an unrecognisable pot of horseshite, doing justice to none.


    One word: Infrastructure.

    Native Americans had to discover that way of tanning leather since they did not have the infrastructure required for making clothes out of fabric. Native Americans don't live in cities, and don't have to make leather for hundreds or thousands of citizens.

    The Native American art of tanning leather is an entirely different method of tanning, and one that was'nt used in the style of fashions depicted in the setting, too. Europe used it in the ice and bronze ages, we moved on to vegetable tanning because it is more suited to production on a larger scale - the "old" way of tanning is NOT suited to production on a larger scale AT ALL.

    Many don't realise just HOW IMPORTANT infrastructure and economy is - We created civilisation, not because were more intelligent, but we had infrastructure. I laugh at Skyrim's "realistic" smithing, not just for the "ping ping" of a hammer and a sword appears.

    Do you know how much work is involved in making just ONE sword?

    Here, have a read:

    So, a -small- workshop might be 1 lone master smith, 5 journeymen, 15 apprentices. plus a secretary who deals with paperwork. But behind them, there's 5 farmers raising cattle, and a huntsman catching deer, a tannery of 4 people producing the leather. And there's a steel finery of 4 people, who are supplied with iron from the foundry with its 6 people, which is supplied with charcoal by 8 people, and iron from a mine with 20 people, plus 2 barge-masters shipping the stuff around between the places....

    So that one workshop of 21 people needs 50 more to operate at all. One swordsmith? He needs that 50 people too. The blacksmith making horse-shoes and hinges in the village? He needs 30 people up in the mountains to get the iron. And chances are, he does'nt know how to use steel, because he's not part of the cutler's guild.

    This is only a small, tiny fragment of great economy and infrastructure required to make a small piece of iron.

    I'm sorry, but Native Americans didn't have that infrastructure. That is why they used that leather.
    Nor does the ogre, so I assume he just scraps together pieces of his victims equipment.

    If they had a full infrastructure to support it, cloth would be the preferred choice, simply for it's materials abilties. It keeps you warm when it's cold, doesn't boil you when it's hot (like leather), you can repair it easily, you can dye it more easily, it's extremely flexible, etc, etc, etc. .

    Infrastructure. The lack of that is the only sensible explanation for any human-like society to use leather above cloth for clothing of the body.

    Oh I have many more pages I could write on the subject, but this is your chance to tell me that you don't want to hear it. I will always be in favour of a logical and realistic world, based on all that we've learned in history, which includes all these factors, and argue as such. That will never change.

    If this -weren't- a game that is heavily inspired by the real world, I wouldn't argue. But it is. This is not sci-fi, this is not run of the mill fantasy, this is SUI GENERIS.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2014
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  8. tiny lampe

    tiny lampe Insider

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    Could it also be my chance of telling you that I want to hear it?
    Seriously Elric, the like button is not enough to express how much I enjoy learning from your posts. Dont' change man!
     
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  9. Elric von Rabenfels

    Elric von Rabenfels Insider

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    I'm running low on time for today (Currently only have net at work, since I just moved, don't have net over there yet) but if you're really interested, you could check out this book:

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/...&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=455344027&pf_rd_i=468294
     
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  10. Tony

    Tony Moderator

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    @Elric von Rabenfels, if you have more to say then feel free to keep going. I enjoy reading your posts because you put time, thought and effort into what you say/write.

    As far as the ogre wearing items he takes from other people I find that hard to believe. The suit he was wearing in that video was very well crafted and fit him perfectly. It was obviously a completely matched set of armor, not some mix-and-matched set he had scrounged up here and there. Not to mention armor dimensions would simply be way off considering the size difference between human and ogre (or whatever those creatures are in Sui Generis). It would be more believable saying the ogre perhaps had someone else craft it for him if that race isn't capable of doing so themselves.

    Concerning culture and influences I agree with you that they can't go way off base and implement things which wouldn't make logical or practical sense by just mixing everything together. This is why it wouldn't make sense if they directly copied European culture and practices. The history of the world in Sui Generis is not the same as Europe. Different races, different peoples/creatures, different customs and culture. These differences should be reflected in the game; it should have its own unique identity and not just be a clone of how things were in medieval Europe.

    You speak of infrastructure yet this is another aspect we know very little about in Sui Generis. We do know the world has suffered some catastrophic events and things are changed from what they used to be. Is there much infrastructure in SG or are most places in ruin? Who rules and what type of government is in place - if any at all? How wealthy or poor is the average person? Can the average person afford much clothing or are there many people who must make do with whatever they can find/make just to survive?

    This quote taken from the homepage leads me to believe that the infrastructure in SG might be fairly limited:
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2014
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  11. 666jet

    666jet Insider

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    I have to say i have enjoyed reading these posts it's almost an art, The fluctuations in opinion the extremely well written and could almost be book worthy this is why i have fell so in love with this game i should really fire up the irc more often :)
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2014
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  12. Oona

    Oona Insider

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    224
    I'm curious to know if SG is still planned to be released for this year. . .
     
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  13. Shalani

    Shalani Insider

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    Getting seriously off topic, but the blanket categorization of native American cultures as lacking infrastructure is a gross misreading of history. Especially if you fail to include Anasazi mid American cultures and south American cultures. In their pre-Columbian forms, these cultures were highly developed and had wide economic infrastructures. maybe stone / copper farming societies, not iron age, but having robust trade, farming, social, religious, governmental, and artistic infrastructures.
     
  14. Tony

    Tony Moderator

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    Yes, this is very true. Not to mention they also had things such as advanced arithmetic, large cities with public sewers and aqueducts, they built pyramids and advanced land terraformations, etc. The Maya cities are probably the most well known of these. If anyone would like to read a brief overview of what they were like the wiki page does a decent job: LINK.
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2014
  15. Elric von Rabenfels

    Elric von Rabenfels Insider

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    My apologies, that was not my intent.
    I was merely talking about the native American culture most widely known and recognised as native Americans.
    Those did not possess the infrastructure I talked about, but I should have been more specific.

    Alas, I won't retract my point:

    Even those highly interesting culture like the Atztecs who managed to build up an impressive society and infrastructure all vanished at one point. They lacked one vital part of the puzzle:

    Sea. Ships. Trading. Exchange. The sea made civilisation. If we were all stuck just on one continent with limited resources, we would never be what we are now. Atztecs had a good amount of resources and managed to get far on their own, but they ultimately stopped evolving and started stagnating, and vanished.

    That's my take on them and other, similar civilisations anyway. :)
     
  16. turtleman155

    turtleman155 Insider

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    the Aztecs actually vanished because of the sea, more precisely the Spanish coming and bringing foreign bacteria and viruses which killed off the Aztecs as they were not adapted to be immune to them.
     
  17. Elric von Rabenfels

    Elric von Rabenfels Insider

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    And if they hadn't been so isolated in the first place, they would have been able to immunise themselves against those bacteria and viruses over time, or at least know about them, not getting hit in the face like a pollaxe by them. :D

    But this is -really- getting off-topic.
     
  18. turtleman155

    turtleman155 Insider

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    750
    yeah should get back on it , so everyone, who votes for flaming zombies? put your hands up :D
     
  19. InfamousPotato

    InfamousPotato Insider

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    I do quite enjoy whenever you folks argue. It's never angry or with ill intent, and it's always educational for people like me who are less knowledgeable.
     
  20. Elric von Rabenfels

    Elric von Rabenfels Insider

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    "You wouldn't like me when I'm angry."

    Sorry. I couldn't resist. Back to topic now, hopefully!
     

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