Piercing vs Skeleton and Skeleton in general

[BigT2themax]

I love how this conversation went from how to kill skeletons to maybe different weapon types in Sui Generis to whether or not the game should be strictly medieval europe or not.

My take on these things:
For destroying skeletons, why not just use all the ideas? Maybe depending on how the skeleton is created (maybe through some magical item, some thaumaturge's spell, or just the simple force of will of an angry soul), it might have a weak spot that could be taken advantage of. I'm saying have several different possible weaknesses because if there's only one weakness, players will very quickly just find out what skeletons are weak to and BAM, skeletons are now no more than a nuisance.

...maybe just breaking enough of the bones into peices, and every time it reassembles those bones are missing until it's just a torso and an arm flailing a sword at your ankles. Then you finally dispatch it with a badass curb stomp.

This is nice, I think all skeletons should be able to be killed this way, knocking them down again and again so they lose limbs or other bones and eventually the skeleton just barely gets back up, only to fall down and break apart for the last time. This way if a player can't find that particular skeleton's weakness, the skeleton can still be defeated, but it's difficult and takes a while.

As for whether or not SG should just stick to european medieval weapons, I'm all for weapons from a different area rarely showing up, as long as the weapon works a bit differently compared to other weapons. Variety is always nice, and staying to a european medieval setting isn't really that important. Keep in mind, this is a low fantasy setting with tropes from medieval european times, it doesn't have to be historically accurate if BME doesn't want it to be, the medieval european stuff is just because it's easily recognisable to players, so they know what to expect.

Although, you have a point on the katanas. It'd be a bit annoying to find one, only to find it just works like any other two-handed sword, making the katana a bit pointless. If they're going to put one in, make using it change your fighting style or something, you know?

 

[Psychomorph]

Sorry for going off topic, but your avatar has a knight with an AN-94. Let's talk about this.

 

[BigT2themax]

It's from a set of wallpapers I got on imgur, I don't know who drew it or anything.

 

[Mimel]

First, the DEVs have not set this in any particular era or area of the world exactly. However, as BigT2themax said, it has a recognizable medieval flare to it, based in realism and low-fantasy.

Second, and more to the title's topic, I agree that skeletons would be harder to hit when trying to stab/poke/pierce them. The damage may be less as well, but more to the point, they would be harder to hit since there is space between the bones. Smashing/bashing/and maybe hacking would not suffer a to hit factor. I believe smashing or bashing (i.e. hammers, maces, flails, etc.) could do higher damage as the bones may be less resistant to breakage without the tissues to absorb the blows---Physics.

Third, I like the ideas of undead having certain weaknesses. Plus, I think the idea of just bashing them to bits will eventually kill a skeleton or other undead being finished off in a similar fashion.

As far as different weapon types.....that should be a different thread.

 

[The Hedge Knight]

People really overestimate how large the space between your bones is.

 

[Mimel]

People really overestimate how large the space between your bones is.

If you compare the ability to hit a live body which is solid to that of a skeleton, the odds of hitting the skeleton is dramatically lower. If we don't think about the space between the bones, but just the diameter of the femur compared to the flesh surrounding it, you can see my point.

In addition, the bones are a hard surface, the flesh is soft, therefore the blade has more chance to "stick" the flesh than it does to enter the bone. It has more of a chance to glance off of the moving bone than it does the moving flesh.

 

[The Hedge Knight]

Blades are sharp as hell though, a well honed blade won't have too much trouble piercing bone.

 

[Orisoll]

Blades are sharp as hell though, a well honed blade won't have too much trouble piercing bone.

No blade stays sharp for long, especially when being used. And even if a sword/axe is freshly sharpend it'll take a good chop to cut through bone. And trust me, in the middle of a sword fight the last thing you want to do is wind up for a good swing. Doing so leaves you open under the shoulder (most armor doesn't cover the armpit) and slightly off balance, both of which are pretty much a death sentence in a fight with anyone of decent skill.

 

[BigT2themax]

I think maybe leaving it to chance wouldn't be very good. Anything to do with chance I never really care about (for instance, critical hits. I never do ANYTHING to increase the chances of those, because it's all just chance and it's pointless), So maybe let the physics engine deal with it? It's able to accurately deal with tables and other intricate shapes, so why not skeletons? It could see if the sword even hit the skeleton at all, or maybe have it reduce damage from a stab because the sword didn't hit very much of the skeleton, or didn't hit very hard and just glanced off, like Mimiel said?

Of course, a plain old reduction in damage might be good too, so long as it's not just shown with floaty numbers or icons. It'd be a little obvious. Make it subtle, like, have the skeletons not react much to stabs, yet when hit by a mace they stagger lots and such. stuff like that.

 

[MrIdontKnow]

It's fantasy, so you could say a Katana could be an item, but I agree with you here, because the Katana has too much presence in media and I'd prefer Sui Generis to be sui generis.

However, I'd like to see a variety of weapons, among them some non European, eastern weapons. Things such as Persian scimitars and perhaps even Indian sabres. Middle eastern weaponry has a historical connection to the European dark middle ages (crusades). I can even imagine a sword, inspired by ancient Chinese designs could be an exotic and rare item, but a Katana seems too modern and oversaturated.


Persian:

Indian:

There all bent.

 

[SRJR]

I assume that by "piercing" you mean stabbing, not armor-piercing.

I definitely agree that a skeleton would be less vulnerable to stabbing attacks, but there is only one kind of weapon that you would jab with rather than slash, and that's the spear.

Spears are badly under-explored in games and fantasy in general. Even if you are just looking at european medieval weapons, there is still a huge variety of pikes and halberd designs for different applications (see awesome image below).

Also considering how much less metal it took to make a spear than a sword, simple spears should be the most common and cheapest weapon in the game.

The sword is more iconic, but the spear has been around since the very beginning.

Developed bit by bit through centuries of warfare:
http://www.tehowners.com/info/War, Weapons & Military/Weapons/Polearm Blades.gif

 

[BigT2themax]

I assume that by "piercing" you mean stabbing, not armor-piercing.

I definitely agree that a skeleton would be less vulnerable to stabbing attacks, but there is only one kind of weapon that you would jab with rather than slash, and that's the spear.

Spears are badly under-explored in games and fantasy in general. Even if you are just looking at european medieval weapons, there is still a huge variety of pikes and halberd designs for different applications (see awesome image below).

Also considering how much less metal it took to make a spear than a sword, simple spears should be the most common and cheapest weapon in the game.

The sword is more iconic, but the spear has been around since the very beginning.

Developed bit by bit through centuries of warfare:
http://www.tehowners.com/info/War, Weapons & Military/Weapons/Polearm Blades.gif

Spears are pretty nice, but when I think of starting an adventure as nothing more than an unknown villager setting off into the world, I try and picture them with a spear, and I'm just not feeling it. A spear makes me think of a soldier or a hunter, doesn't really evoke the thought of a wanderer seeking his glory. It'd be a bit cumbersome for an adventurer to carry that around. If you're going for the cheap and easy to make angle, perhaps instead of starting off with a spear or something, start them off with a dagger. That's essentially the same amount of metal, really.

OR, even better, let the player choose what type of weapon they want to start with, whether it be a dagger or a spear or a hand axe or whatever. Everyone's happy that way.

BTW, nice picture and such! you know your stuff when it comes to spears, huh? I kinda like halberds, myself.

Edit: oh, and also, would you not stab with swords or rapiers or anything?

 

[martino]

If you're going for the cheap and easy to make angle, perhaps instead of starting off with a spear or something, start them off with a dagger. That's essentially the same amount of metal, really.

Well while your trying to get close enough to gut me with your dagger, I will stab at you, hit you with the shaft, run back a couple of steps and try again. There is a lot to be said about getting the first shot in. Even a blunt pitch fork is more dangerous weapon.

Now once you get into a grapple the dagger, has the upper hand. But really who want to hung an Ogre (they shower like one a year)

 

[BigT2themax]

Obviously daggers aren't the best weapons, I was considering weapons that are very cheap and easy to make, the lower tier weapons that players would mostly likely use first because everything else is expensive.

I'm all for having spears and other pole-arms included in the game, but using them to completely replace shortswords and clubs and handaxes as starting weapons? Spears are good, but... it's just not the same, you know?

 

[SRJR]

I get a little tired of games that have a legendary all-powerful sword that can slay any evil and... looks and works exactly the same as a starting sword. I think starting weapons should be ridiculously cheap and weak, like a heavy stick, or a length of chain. That way you have a nice variety of upgrades before you run out of ideas. A finely crafted longsword could be the best weapon in the game, and you wouldn't need to say it was magical.

This comic is relevant:
http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/metallurgy.png

You could also have realistic "special" attributes, like an intimidation stat from decorated weapons like flamberges, that delay the opponent's reaction by a few milliseconds. Big guys and undead could be immune to intimidation.

 

[Bibidibop]

I laugh in the general direction of xkcd's strip. I like the idea of realistic weapon deficiencies, because it would mean iron, bronze, and steel could all coexist and have real trade offs. For instance, bronze is better than iron, but much more expensive, but not better than steel which is also cheaper than bronze. Then there are grades of steel, with crucible steel pretty much being olden times best thanks to very few impurities which are very evenly distributed.

If it's possible, what I would like not to see is classes of damage. I don't know how this would be done, but if bashiness and sliciness were only matters of weight, leverage, and cross section, I think that would be ideal. That way, those aspects could be determined by the model of the object, and you wouldn't have to separately program weapon stats, except material density. Naturally, you would still want the ability to manually input arbitrary values for fine tuning and legendary weirdo weapons.

The neat thing about letting the model determine the slicy, bashy characteristics, if it's at all realistic to program that, is depending on how the weapon swings, the slice and bash abilities would alter. Hit someone with the flat of a blade and it suddenly gives lots of blunt trauma with almost no penetration; edge-on it has superb penetration, little blunt trauma. Use a flanged mace, and it would have extremely good penetration, but only for a very short length before it turns into massive blunt trauma, because the flanges aren't long and taper quickly. I just recalled, a sword will be flexible, but a mace will be inflexible, so that would need to be a statistic, because it effects blunt impact in swings and thrusts, since a sword which is too flexible will probably not be good in thrusts against armor, while the reverse is true.

On the matter of skeletons, I think swords should be better, because bone is only a little stronger than solid aluminum, and that stuff is very soft. A decent sword should slice right through bone, while also giving the best reach. A bashing weapon would likely have worse reach, and be harder to use.

I think skeleton monsters should be one of the few monsters with hit points. Imagine them being held together with an enchantment, and that breaking bones breaks the enchantment, and that mending breaks in the bones weakens the enchantment. This could be tied to the fact that the game has ghosts, so the enchantment is actually a ghost bound to a material frame, and disrupting the frame disrupts the ghost. Unhinged ghosts lack this weakness, or have it to an extremely minimal degree since they use luminous air, or some such. Alternatively, I like this idea that there is something holding the enchantment of the skeleton: what if it is the skeleton's brain which holds the enchantment? Head shots really count, and the head is a touch target, being all small and maneuverable. If that were the case, it would be a good excuse for making the skeletons move in extremely odd ways.

 

[The Hedge Knight]

If we were going to be super realistic here, than swords would hardly be used and would be useless against anything in armor.

 

[Bibidibop]

If we were going to be super realistic here, than swords would hardly be used and would be useless against anything in armor.

A sword can work against plate, they're capable of slashing and thrusting through; their problem is they take a lot of skill to use correctly, because it's very easy to swing like a club, instead of drawing the blade through the swing to make it act as if it were curved. Maces are easier since they don't even have to pierce armor to smash flesh and bone, but they're less versatile, shorter, maybe heavier, but I'm not sure on that. Flanged maces can pierce armor in addition to the great bashing ability. Machettes are good against chain, because they're heavier, and I think balanced with more weight toward the end of the blade, instead of near the guard, and possibly cheaper than a sword, but maybe a little shorter.

 

[The Hedge Knight]

No, they can't. It is the reason the nobility started using axes and picks instead. The estoc is the only sword that was actually built to stab a knight in full armor. Even if your sword was strong enough to pierce, no swordsmen (human at least) is capable to do that. Even early firearms could not pierce quality armor at close point, a knights only hope against another knight if he only had his long sword was to slash through the places where the armor meets as those places are normally the least protected.

 

[SRJR]

No, they can't. It is the reason the nobility started using axes and picks instead. The estoc is the only sword that was actually built to stab a knight in full armor. Even if your sword was strong enough to pierce, no swordsmen (human at least) is capable to do that. Even early firearms could not pierce quality armor at close point, a knights only hope against another knight if he only had his long sword was to slash through the places where the armor meets as those places are normally the least protected.

I agree that the sword wasn't really designed for fighting armor. Some large swords were meant to be used upside-down (held on the blade and swung like a hammer) against heavy armor.

Still, it's not like swords won't do damage against armor. Even in plate mail, you're still getting hit with a lot of hard steel. (Did some searching, apparently plate mail was usually only 1 to 3mm thick)

Anyways, I have a skeleton-related question. Should they be able to wear armor? If an armored skelly get smashed up, does the armor fall off (can the player loot it) before the skeleton starts to form back together?