Midcal9
Member
I'm not a kid, not an "expert" although I have named a few experts above, and I've watched a lot more youtube videos than one.
Do you have an argument to make or did you show up here to drive-by poop on me?
Coffee Diary 29/3/21
- Thread starter Zetheros
- Start date
Do you have an argument to make or did you show up here to drive-by poop on me?
Billy
Member
Let’s get this straight, Exanima is not fundamentally a game about swords, much the same as the Medieval period cannot be reduced to the sum of its smallest details. Many real cultures have produced weapons of vastly differing shape, size and quality, and that the fictional countries of Exanima's world would produce slightly unorthodox swords is perfectly normal. You describe historical swords as if they were fashioned in those proportions by law and not simply by convention. Crafts of all kinds have fashions and trends, and the proportions of any particular weapon would have been no exception; they were subject to change. Were we to rewind history and let it replay (as we do in historical or historically inspired fiction), swords may have come to a very different or (in Exanima’s case) only a slightly different shape.I sense strong distrust in your tone sir. Very Well.
Copies made by modern day famous swordsmith or certain measurements from museums. Average grip length of a mid XVth century arming sword was 10cm long or under. Gauntlets do not actually prevent you from wrapping your hand around a grip that is well sized for your palm. I am 197cm tall, I have normal hand size with rather long fingers and a 10cm grip is actually slightly larger for me than it should be.
Some swords like this one had even smaller grips, roughly 8cm long due to their pommel shape which facilitated your contact with the pommel.
Reconstructing a mid 15th century sword
A resource for historic arms and armor collectors with photo galleries, reviews, reference materials, discussion forums, a bookstore and a comparison tool.myarmoury.com
Oakeshott Type XIV Swords
A resource for historic arms and armor collectors with photo galleries, reviews, reference materials, discussion forums, a bookstore and a comparison tool.myarmoury.com
Here is a nice replica made by Peter Johnsson;
Castillon Replica
www.peterjohnsson.com
Collection
Explore our objects, archives and library with the new Royal Armouries Collection onlinecollections.royalarmouries.org
This sword's grip length is 9cm long; https://fb.watch/4x_IjQeLWO/
Edit;
If those are the measurements of the swords you have shown us today then for whatever reason they do not look like anything I have seen IRL or on NET in terms of their proportions. Look at the measurements of the last sword I have shown you, here is the link;
It doesn't look like anything I see on those screenshots. Everything I see on them is either too large, long or too small. The entire harmony of the design is missing.
Here is a must watch for you, a semi long lecture on sword design given by someone who has measured hundreds of originals;
What makes your criticism unwelcome in the first place is that it misses the point. These screenshots are posted to demonstrate the technical system the developers have implemented. They are meant to hint at the variety, not the aesthetic of the weapons that can be produced, so when you waste Madoc’s time quibbling about centimetres of a sword’s grip, you shouldn’t be surprised when people talk down to you like a child. These Coffee Diaries are a privilege, and the developers have been uncommonly kind to share what they’re working on every week. Most developers don’t do this, and it puts them in a difficult place with regards to creative freedom, especially when every post featuring a sword is met with constant whining.
I know that you’ll keep posting until nobody replies so this will be my final post.
muxanuk_the_proctor
Member
Hey, may be it is kinda off-topic but wouldn't it be more lore-fitting to replace Lilis or Roses or whatever the symbol it is in the corners of the new UI window with Spiders, representing the Guardian's cult? Keeping same style the lilis have of course.
Midcal9
Member
That's a rather rude reply. If I knew that Madoc as well the rest did not care proportions and overall appearance of their weapons I would not have "wasted" his time.
Back in mid 2000s people who behaved like you on Vbulletin boards were called "groupies", just a small FYI.
They were most likely fashioned by both. Swords combine a lot of different physical attributes which must be managed and obeyed even in order to produce a weapon with certain handling behavior. Unless you haven't noticed I was talking about the overall shape of swords. I did not order him to do anything, I didn't insult anyone either. I expressed my thoughts on the subject. I have also posted a great, albeit long video which addresses that very matter.
Back in mid 2000s people who behaved like you on Vbulletin boards were called "groupies", just a small FYI.
Kunio
Member
If you have an idea of how you want it to look like, it would be quicker to create a reference image in Photoshop or something.
Based on the uploaded screenshot, you should be able to create an image where the balance of each part of the sword is in the desired ratio.
It's not that difficult.
All you have to do is cut out each part, scale it and place it as you wish.
Midcal9
Member
The thing is, they know how I would prefer them to look because almost, no, all swords in Exanima so far are pretty damn well proportioned, critiquing existing models would be nitpicking. God this is getting tricky to explain... My exchange with Chief Dev wasn't about him not understanding what I think is preferable, it was about me trying to explain why those new types might be somewhat less desirable.
Also, imagine how much heat I would catch if I actually showed up with an edited image of exanima sword and said: "do it like this"?
Btw, I never worked with phtoshop before, I'm a mid tier bookkeeper* by trade. I guess I could learn it for the sake of Exanima weapondom but, there is no need. Although I'm pretty sure it would be somewhat harder to do what you're describing. I would have to rescale all sword elements separately in order to get it really right.
Madoc showed me this one before, so yes he knew and knows what was I getting at; https://www.baremettle.com/forums/index.php?attachments/procvreal-jpg.2904/
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Madoc
Project Lead
Obviously there's a bit of a communication barrier here, because honestly no, I have no idea what it is that you think we should change. The swords are proportioned according to real historical examples, the example you linked above wasn't something I tailored to your preference, it was a comparison between one of the in game swords as they are with a similar historical example. You even took this to the myarmoury forums, posting what I clearly said was incomplete and yet an actual expert said they saw nothing wrong with them besides them spanning an unlikely historical period, which is intentional and irrelevant.
At this point I literally have no idea what your issue with the swords is. I have a few specific critiques of my own with proportions that I already took up with the artist who's making them a week ago, and I think some elements could be more refined, but it's all pretty arbitrary really and I certainly don't think there's anything fundamentally wrong with them. Everyone who's seen them except for you think they're great, and there's a lot of "sword geeks" in this community.
I'm always listening to feedback, but I'm definitely not getting a clear message here and it's just becoming a waste of my time. This will all be improved and significantly expanded on either way, so we'll just keep doing what we're doing.
Midcal9
Member
Ohh god, I had hoped you wouldn't mention that forum, I wasn't planing to mention it at all. Seems like regardless of how I'll write this answer it will come across as rude, so be it as it may.
Seeing that procedural sword next to a real life example should have made my critique of your procedural weapons very clear, even if it has all matching components and it also looks a lot better than some other examples. The grip size, mainly it's length as well as the size of a cross-guard and it's thickness posses far more volume in comparison to the blade, that sword is "Grip Heavy", the grip/cross guard area of that sword is too large, it's oversized in comparison to a real one, and significantly so, it has too much "dead meat" or metal in its case. In fact many of your procedural weapons suffer from this very illness. The sword blades are aslo on a strong and chunky side, which is not historically inaccurate, no, but it's a domineering trend it seems.
I have posted a great video, I've talked about it before, which adresses this exact issue of sword poroptions, you probably are not going to watch it but it's right there.
Yes they are Ok compared to most examples we would find in most games, but I think that is mostly because video game swords have nothing in common with real examples, I think that at this point most people have no idea what a real sword should look like at all. Can't you notice a striking difference between proportions of a real sword and the procedural sword on that photo? I can, and I find procedural to be slightly but also very noticeably off in every aspect of it. Imagine changing the proportion of your favorite car, any car at all. Make the front end 5% shorter and the back end only 3% longer while increasing the hight of that car by 2,5%. I think you'd notice it immediately and the car would not longer appeal to you at all meanwhile being only "slightly different".
As for the expert, I don't believe Victor is an actual sword maker with years of experience, I assume he is more of a very knowledgeable enthusiast. I might be wrong on this one of course. Also, did you not see my reply where I kindly asked for his opinion and replied with my own 50cents? On other hand Craig is a very well known designer of swords for a very reputable manufacturer with more than 2 decades of experience. His opinion was somewhat different. And yet it was not my intention to use their opinions against you from the get go, I wanted to figure out what others would say and how they would say it so perhaps I could use different types of explanations, or maybe even be proven wrong?
Well, that's a pity. I thought that after hearing my repetitive explanations you might have gotten my perspective, I know I'm being tedious at this point but I honestly have no idea what else must I say to make myself clear.
I'm well aware of that, did I say it was done by you specifically for me? You posted that picture during our previous exchange of reactions about procedural weapons in an older Coffee Diary.
Seeing that procedural sword next to a real life example should have made my critique of your procedural weapons very clear, even if it has all matching components and it also looks a lot better than some other examples. The grip size, mainly it's length as well as the size of a cross-guard and it's thickness posses far more volume in comparison to the blade, that sword is "Grip Heavy", the grip/cross guard area of that sword is too large, it's oversized in comparison to a real one, and significantly so, it has too much "dead meat" or metal in its case. In fact many of your procedural weapons suffer from this very illness. The sword blades are aslo on a strong and chunky side, which is not historically inaccurate, no, but it's a domineering trend it seems.
I have posted a great video, I've talked about it before, which adresses this exact issue of sword poroptions, you probably are not going to watch it but it's right there.
Yes they are Ok compared to most examples we would find in most games, but I think that is mostly because video game swords have nothing in common with real examples, I think that at this point most people have no idea what a real sword should look like at all. Can't you notice a striking difference between proportions of a real sword and the procedural sword on that photo? I can, and I find procedural to be slightly but also very noticeably off in every aspect of it. Imagine changing the proportion of your favorite car, any car at all. Make the front end 5% shorter and the back end only 3% longer while increasing the hight of that car by 2,5%. I think you'd notice it immediately and the car would not longer appeal to you at all meanwhile being only "slightly different".
I took it there to see what they will say and to have an exchange of ideas there with adults who won't shut me up, post snarky comments, white knight for, well you know who and such like. I wanted to have a conversation with real adults only and not a mixed bag of people who often times do not wish to engage with me in good faith, I didn't do it to get you, but to have a conversation and in a sense test my own opinions against theirs if need be. Also, please keep in mind that I didn't mention that thread on this forum nor I was planing to do it as some kind of hidden trump card, you brought it up first.
As for the expert, I don't believe Victor is an actual sword maker with years of experience, I assume he is more of a very knowledgeable enthusiast. I might be wrong on this one of course. Also, did you not see my reply where I kindly asked for his opinion and replied with my own 50cents? On other hand Craig is a very well known designer of swords for a very reputable manufacturer with more than 2 decades of experience. His opinion was somewhat different. And yet it was not my intention to use their opinions against you from the get go, I wanted to figure out what others would say and how they would say it so perhaps I could use different types of explanations, or maybe even be proven wrong?
I have tried and given it all I could.
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Kunio
Member
If exanima was a medieval simulator advocating extreme realism, I could understand your point, but it's not.
So it's right to exaggerate the silhouette of the sword to some extent to make it look better on the game screen or to fit the general perception.
If that exaggeration is not well-received by many people, then the developers will think it should be fixed, but I don't think your single opinion will change anything... at least not unless you are a sponsor or something.
If I may speak personally, I have no idea what's wrong with the current look.
Considering the other plans, I don't think the developers should spend time and money to fix a few centimeters.
Resources are finite, so I'm hoping that the developers will do what they want.
Midcal9
Member
Maybe they shouldn't spend their time on it, however it is a rather bad change for me personally because I, as a mere single and lone person, of no importance at all, have been enjoying the sword designs in this game so far and saw absolutely nothing wrong with them of any significance. That is the reason why I have been so vocal, ahaha.
As for the models of the swords themselves, you can not simply take an original well made European sword and then increase only some parts of it, such as a crossguard and lets say grip meanwhile not doing anything with the blade and pommel. If you increase the length and width, the overall profile of a crossguard then other parts of the sword should, usually, also proportionally increase in size as well. If that is not the case then your sword will end up looking rather clunky (and also handle very bad IRL) for those who know what to look for.
Now, I do not know much about Japanese swords but I'm fairly certain that if you were to increase the size of Tsuba by 25% of an otherwise well fitted and made Katana then you would end up with something that would look silly for even a very average katana "connoisseur". Although there is a small caveat there, historically speaking Tsuba's were actually somewhat larger than what we usually see on modern day replicas, originals were usually between 8cm to 9.5 cm in diameter vs the modern day 7.5cm.
So yes, to me personally and it seems like I'm the only here with this view, as always, most swords presented here look like clunkier versions of originals. If it must be done and devs see nothing wrong with that then knock yourselves out, sure!
Even if I were a sponsor who donated them 10k euro during their kickstarter campaign they still wouldn't budge, that's the vibe I'm getting. But big thanks for your honest take though.
Well, that's too bad. I'd blame gaming and pop culture on it for the most part. I can not explain to you why they are wrong or what should you look for within 2 sentences. I've been trying to explain my take on this issue in this thread and yet no one understood anything so far.
There is another matter I would like address however, the video lecture I have posted in this thread has been deleted from YouTube recently and I'm a bit paranoid about it, it's a strange coincidence. I wouldn't however be surprised if some not very well behaved Discord users had trolled/false reported the owner of that channel, in fact that channel has deleted all of its videos. But that's just a wild guess.
There is another video which somewhat touches this subject, if you're interested;
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Ganthor
Member
I love the idea of the camera dynamically zooming in on your person, I agree that I would love to see more of the models up close and personal. Even with a 27" 1440p monitor a lot of detail is just too small to appreciate. Love the work you're doing and I'm so excited to see how proc. weapons change the dynamics of the game
Madoc
Project Lead
@Midcal9
At this point I'll admit I'm only reading fragments of this, but your critique as far as I can understand seem to amount to minute differences in grip length, which is a (literally) random little detail in a system which scales these things to suit different weapon types and for randomisation, which is being actively worked on. Until a week ago we couldn't even have these weapons in game, they were just generated models with a preview and some purely technical testing of deformation methods. We are literally in the process right now of actually fleshing this out into different sword types with more specific grips, properly defining the differences in proportions between each type and working out the parameters for every deformation. I immediately asked you to wait. Until. We're actually. Done. Please.
Also the sword blades are so thin you can barely see them side on. These are not chunky. I think you're just getting confused by high contrast in game lighting compared to well lit photographs.
Pre randomisation, the base models for arming swords were based off historical examples and their proportions match those quite exactly. Maybe these happen to be swords you don't like, tough I guess. It should be known and obvious that grip and blade length vary from sword to sword, as do the hands and preference of their users. Some arming swords can even be quite comfortably used with two hands by gripping the pommel.
I also cannot understand how you can claim that current swords in game are well proportioned, when they were all made by different people, mostly years ago by people with much less experience than they have now, and not based off real historical examples. They are random AF and often outright ridiculous. Three of the current swords in the game were made entirely by me, and I'm the programmer.
At this point I'll admit I'm only reading fragments of this, but your critique as far as I can understand seem to amount to minute differences in grip length, which is a (literally) random little detail in a system which scales these things to suit different weapon types and for randomisation, which is being actively worked on. Until a week ago we couldn't even have these weapons in game, they were just generated models with a preview and some purely technical testing of deformation methods. We are literally in the process right now of actually fleshing this out into different sword types with more specific grips, properly defining the differences in proportions between each type and working out the parameters for every deformation. I immediately asked you to wait. Until. We're actually. Done. Please.
Also the sword blades are so thin you can barely see them side on. These are not chunky. I think you're just getting confused by high contrast in game lighting compared to well lit photographs.
Pre randomisation, the base models for arming swords were based off historical examples and their proportions match those quite exactly. Maybe these happen to be swords you don't like, tough I guess. It should be known and obvious that grip and blade length vary from sword to sword, as do the hands and preference of their users. Some arming swords can even be quite comfortably used with two hands by gripping the pommel.
I also cannot understand how you can claim that current swords in game are well proportioned, when they were all made by different people, mostly years ago by people with much less experience than they have now, and not based off real historical examples. They are random AF and often outright ridiculous. Three of the current swords in the game were made entirely by me, and I'm the programmer.
Midcal9
Member
I have asked a question on a fairly obscure forum to hear a 2nd, 3rd or even 4th opinion on the matter. I wasn't gonna copy paste comments from there to bring them here and score some victory or whatever. I might be annoying but I'm not a dipshit. I don't understand why that thread causes you so much discomfort. There might be something going on among developers in your team in regards to your relationship to that site but I am just totally flabbergast by some of your reactions. Like, I'm sorry man, what did I do? That's all I can tell you.
Yes, everything you have said is correct however there are a few more nuances to it, I have tried to explain them the best I could but it didn't work, maybe my verbal abilities are just subpar. And now that video I posted is also gone for some reason. Perhaps you could place a player model's hand next to a few randomized swords or make it hold them?
I have found another video which touches upon sword proportions which were rediscovered by Peter Johnsson in the deleted one, perhaps you could take a look at this much shorter one? It could give you an idea where I'm coming from;
Alright, how about we will change the subject for a bit, you do your new swords, I can't do anything about it. Great.
So as far as the current sword models are concerned I think the main reason why their proportions do not rub me the wrong way is that back then you were not trying to achieve the same goals you are pursuing right now it terms of component visibility which forces you to increase the volumetric size of an object in comparison to its "historical size" by sometimes even 20%.
Constructing a sword from mostly approprite elements where you add a mostly fitting blade to a mostly fitting pommel, grip and crossguard will result in a sword that doesn't quite fit itself, it will not have a wholeness. Normally speaking there is only a fiarly limited range of approtite hilts, grips and pommels (size, shape and mass wise) for a certain type of blade and the other way around.
The predominance of arming swords with hand and half grips which also score chunky, really chunky crossguards which when combined together produce a rather unrefined archetype that dominates all others on the screenshots you have showed so far. That's all to it.
Again, sorry for that forum post, I saw no harm in it. You can always start a new thread, give it a catchy title and post new, nice pictures of your finalized swords. Boom. Cool thread, lot's of reactions!
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Steve Pine
Member
Completely off topic but is the line about using weapons different ways refering to using two hands on a hand and a half grip sword? Just a question, i know next to nothing about swords and i just think it would be cool to two hand a smaller sword that is not super long.
Steve Pine
Member
Just relised im in the wrong coffee diary, my bad
Madoc
Project Lead
I didn't even finish reading the first paragraph of this and I'm so done. What the actual fuck are you on about?
I work 14 hours a day 365 days a year and I take it upon myself to engage with the community too. You're not listening to anything I'm saying, just wasting my fucking time. Have some respect. What kind of ridiculous utter crap do you have pull out before you'll swallow your pride and drop an argument?
There is nothing wrong with the proportions or whatever it is you're even saying (nobody knows). Certainly nothing wrong with my relationship with the team. How fucking dare you?
Your (apparently ultra specific) personal preference does not matter here. This is a system designed to create a great variety of swords, and you've seen a handful of examples from one specific sub-type. You might like some and not many others that the system can generate, that's the whole point. It can literally produce millions of different swords.
You have not made an actual point. You do not listen. The swords are not incorrect in their proportions, this is simply a fact and you cannot dispute it. Me and the guy making these have been reconstructing stuff in 3D for over 20 years professionally, including accurate architectural reconstructions, luxury goods, medical simulations. We've worked for the government, for television and all sorts of big and fussy clients. We fucking know how make something to scale. Now run along and shut it.
Midcal9
Member
Relationship your team might have to that site
And not a relationship you have with your team
I haven't dared anything, but good luck.
madrobot10092
Insider
go use your hyper precision vision for something other than looking at tiny differences in blade length, i bet you’d make a better engineer than a critic
