Ecosystem

[Dragomir]

Yes, I think it's essential for this game to work out well. We have a persistent world with NPC's going about their buisness, all animals should do the same - including natural monsters. They should hunt and eat each other, sleep and reproduce (we don't have to necessarily see it though). I think an illusion of a living environment would suffice, but then pushing it even further would also be great.

I mentioned it in LindyBeige thread that in Gothic such illusion was present. Predators attacked us because they were hunting, and after we died we could pretty much sit and watch being eaten by them. Another thing is that they attacked each other and had different behaviours.
In Gothic 2 I think it was done even better, let me explain.

One time I was on my trip to monastery. I was a complete fledgeling with very basic gear. I could take a small animal if it was single, but in that game most of them wandered in packs. Suddenly I walk into a pack of scavengers - big birds that even though usually fed on carcass will attack if unsettled. I was really scared, because before I managed to run away they charged at me. Then - a pack of wolves suddenly ran out of a forest. I was sure that's my death sentence and I was ready to reload the save. But they didn't attack me. Scavengers were much more a meaty prey and a human could've been more dangerous. The scavengers of course started to run away in panic, and wolves followed them into a deep forest. The road was clear.

Now this kind of behaviour indicates many great AI mechanisms. Wolves hunt - when they find a prey they will kill it for food. They had their priorities right, my character was not the most important thing in the world, nor was he the most tasty, so they went after their natural prey. The prey ran away to save life. I just loved how animals would react to humans in that game, and every animal would react in a different manner. Most of them tried to scare us away before charging, while some predators (like raptor-like snappers) would regularly hunt on us, following our character quietly and attacking when they found it suitable. Most of the animals also had their dens. Some of them, mostly prey would go back into bushes or under a rock after the day of scavenging was finished. Predators on the other hand left their hideouts at night to hunt. That made nights especially dangerous and... Exciting. And forests at night were to avoid until pretty high levels.
In some cases that AI behavior also made pretty interesting differences in difficulty. According to stats a monster called Lizard was significantly stronger than a Snapper. But Snappers were far more difficult to fight, as they would creep up on us and attack from an ambush, while lazy Lizards would just lie down on beaches near water and sunbathe.

As Sui Generis' world is to be persistent, a lot of the focus is taken away from the main character - and I love that. We ought to be the part of that world and not a center of it. A system that will make animals act natural - hunt for each other or us, find food, reproduce, sleep in dens, fight for turf or even leadership would really bring life to it. I don't want to feel like the game is throwing at me waves of mobs to slay as in many other RPG and H'n'S games. I really want to feel like everything I find or meet is an integral part of the world I'm exploring, every animal in it's place, doing what it's suppose to do and only interacting with us if it sees us as a threat. That would also make hunting so much more interesting and tactical.

 

[fluffydino2000]

I fully agree with what your saying but the only thing wrong is we don't know if there will be all that many creatures in the game. So far we've only seen humanoids and had the intention of horses confirmed by Madoc. Other than that we don't really know. I do hope we can have features like this though and would love to spend my time just hunting and such if it were that in depth.

 

[Dragomir]

All of that I wrote assuming that there will be animals. If there won't - surely such system won't be in place either. I really think though, that animals are necessary to bring such world as Sui Generis will present us to life. Creatures are one of the last stages of production, I think the ones created so far (humans, skeletons and ogres) are only for testing purposes to see how combat plays out. Anyway, if there are non-humanoid monsters I'd really want to see them as an integral part of the world, rather than mobs to slay.

 

[Cooper Holt]

I'd like to see animals and biomes/ecosystems in Sui Generis. It would add a lot to the game, and it could also set the stage for a hunting mechanic (Kill animals, sell the meat and hides).

 

[Oona]

Yes, I believe there will be wildlife. Mounts were also mentioned, and I think in a world like that of SG, we'll be able to have more than just horses. Also since we'll be able to have our own homes (I think this was mentioned as one of the plans?), I wonder if wild animals could break in, mess things up a little and sleep in for shelter. I think that would be interesting to see after coming from an adventure. I don't know if companion animals other than mounts will be available, but maybe it would be possible to tame creatures that could follow you around- I'm not talking ogres or other monsters, but more human-friendly animals like maybe birds or dogs.

 

[Dragomir]

Oh yes, pets and companions is one of the many possibilities of advanced creature AI. Now imagine a situation in which we carry a big leg of lamb or some other delicious animal, and a pack of wolves starts to follow us. Then, if we frop the meat on the ground they'd start eating and leave us alone If done continously we could perhaps befriend them to some degree.
That kind of mechanics would also do well when hunting for more fierce monsters of precious hide for example - we could leave the meat in front of a cave as bait. All of that possible if only animals would have AI that makes them eat. Wouldn't that be amazing?

 

[martino]

What you have asked for is on their feature wish list

http://www.baremettle.com/sg/forums/index.php?threads/random-events.263/#post-4764

My idea for normal animal spawns is that they have a "range" where they live, and they move through the range doing their animal business. If the area can't support their survival or becomes too dangerous, they move on to a new range. In theory, you should be able to hang around an area and run across the animals that live in it... not because you hit their spawn trigger, but because that's where they happen to be at the moment. It lets us do things like ask you to follow a herd of deer in the game if you want to kill more than one or two, rather than waiting some arbitrary time and running over the deer trigger again.

I don't know yet how feasible something like this will be in terms of programming or how it'll survive design discussions going forward, but it's what I have on my concept list right now.

I just depends on where it has ended up in the priority list. I get the feeling that the AI programming around dynamic quests is proving a bit more difficult than the guys had planned for. (I don't recall anyone saying they were a specialist AI programmer)

 

[BrecMadak]

In addition to what Dragomir has already said, I wish it would be a world thats never secure to live within, it would add tension, intensity that will leave us on a knife-edge, just in real life nowhere u could feel safe; and if so, you would only call it 'luck'.

 

[Rod_Lightning]

Lots of wishful thinking in here :/

I also don't really care for hunting/skinning/selling stuff mechanics because soooooo many games have done it already and they almost always are boring as fuck and end up in players looking to exploit the in-game economy. It often detracts from a game I feel...Not saying it would do so in Sui Generis though.

As for mounts. I doubt they'll include it for combat purposes. I do hope they'll include horses, mules, donkeys and whatnot for pulling carts to and from big and small markets.

 

[Dragomir]

Lots of wishful thinking in here :/

Huh? And what's wrong with that? It's not us that are working on the game, so we can only wish and drop in some ideas.

I also don't really care for hunting/skinning/selling stuff mechanics because soooooo many games have done it already and they almost always are boring as fuck and end up in players looking to exploit the in-game economy. It often detracts from a game I feel...

I don't know of any game that would have a working ecosystem done right. Sui Generis is supposed to be a simulation of a persistent fantasy world and that wouldn't be complete without wildlife that is more than just mobs to kill, skin and sell (and in most games it is, that's why hunting is "boring as fuck" there).

I only know of few games that have done hunting right - the example of Gothic 1 and 2 - you needed skills to skin different animals, and acquiring them from NPC's was expensive, both in terms of money and XP. That system was done well and hunting was a great way of gathering money and experience, also putting great balance to exploration (you wanted to explore the wilderness to hunt creatures, but some places were too dangerous to explore early in the game because of them).

As for mounts. I doubt they'll include it for combat purposes. I do hope they'll include horses, mules, donkeys and whatnot for pulling carts to and from big and small markets.

Carts are a great idea. I always wanted to travel from ruin to ruin on top of one With SG's realistic physics and collision they would work great.

 

[Meaghan Ballard]

I'd like to see animals and biomes/ecosystems in Sui Generis. It would add a lot to the game, and it could also set the stage for a hunting mechanic.

I wonder if in this case it would be possible to over hunt animals, and cause them to become endangered or extinct? And if so, will the price for the meat and hides from that animal become more expensive to buy in markets, like in a proper economy? There are so many factors in doing this though :/

 

[Dragomir]

I wonder if in this case it would be possible to over hunt animals, and cause them to become endangered or extinct? And if so, will the price for the meat and hides from that animal become more expensive to buy in markets, like in a proper economy? There are so many factors in doing this though :/

Hm, we don't yet know much about Sui Generis' economy, but I'd sure love it if it was dynamic (like the rest of the game's world). And not only for hides etc. but all kinds of stuff - that way we could use it to get rich. I'd love to for once play a wandering merchant in an RPG Especially if there would be carts or pack horses. I guess that should be discussed in an "Economy" thread though

Anyway, a proper dynamic ecosystem should allow to wipe out a whole species, but that should be a huge undertaking.

 

[fluffydino2000]

I think for extinction and endangerment to work effectively, there needs to be a sort of simulated breeding, behind the scenes. Baby animals will spawn based on things like population density of the creature and the time of year. They grow up and then also help to spawn more. Animals will have to have some kind of survival mechanic as said n the OP. That way, if they don't eat they die. So, with the dynamic AI applied to them, they should naturally hunt and be predatorial and you'd be able to affect whole food chains by over hunting. Obviously, hunting would be kinda pointless, it would take you time and all you get is money as an end result, but you could do it for the sake of money. As for the economy, I'm almost certain it'll be naturally dynamic because of the dynamic AI.

 

[Dragomir]

Obviously, hunting would be kinda pointless, it would take you time and all you get is money as an end result, but you could do it for the sake of money.

I think it would serve well as a safe archery training for example.

 

[fluffydino2000]

I guess, but we know grinding won't level you faster (still don't get how they'll balance that) so you'd only be practising your own personal skill really. And with the dynamic nature of the game, you'll probably be able to practice on things like trees to be even safer. It should still be in the game though, because hunting for hunting's sake is good enough, not to mention affecting economies and the story by doing it.

 

[Xerxes]

When we want to add something in the game, we need to ask ourselves how will this affect the player's experience, and how good will it fit with the rest of the game.

Eco system sounds cool, however, it is not that exciting. Eco system would work in a god game, because it is only relevant in those. I never played a sandbox and thought, it would be better if wolves are chasing rabbits. Skyrim, witcher, two worlds 2 all have this nailed to some extent, and it is not as good as it sounds.

The word we are looking for here is immersion, unless our character needs to eat 15 rabbits a day or starved to death, a eco system will not add in immersion. Yes, it may be impressive for the first or second time (I remember the first time I played skyrim), but you will inevitably look past it. Spending time on this would be a total waste.

What I always liked is a crafting system in which you can craft all kinds of gears and consumables from animals and monsters. Monster hunter is built entirely on this concept. It makes hunting meaningful, rather than just letting these elements randomly lying around as in assassin's creed and the new tomb raider.

Even though the developer has stated they currently had no plan of a food system. I think a need system lite can still be cool. In legend of grimrock, and many other old school rpgs, potions are rare, and you need to set up camp to restore your health. The amount of health restored is linked to the weather, the place you are resting, status effects, and the food you choose to eat during that rest. This adds immersion as well as making collecting small things and killing bandits stealing their stuffs all that sweeter. It also incentivise player to travel around the over world to collect consumables. It is genuinely fun.

It is also worth mentioning that for a game to be truly immersive, it needs to convince player the game world is a place in which real humans are living in, rather than an ugly land full of murders and quest givers that will send any strangers to find their missing wives. Skyrim did an ok job on this, but it is mostly undermined by all the bandits and necromancers running around doing nothing and you can kill them just like in the Borderland. I doubt SG can afford to put that much resource into NPC voice acting and dialogue texts. My 2 cents would be make the npcs come and go. Don't just make them sitting there waiting for the player to find their lost wife or stolen shovel. Make it seems like they can undergo character development, rather than having them talking all day without any payoff to player actions. (again, another issue with skyrim. )

 

[ZaratanCho]

It is not just about the player though. The world is supposed to exist and run by itself even if the player is just sitting in a house for hundreads of hours. Events are not focused on the player. The game is not run by the player and not everything happens for him. In the end the world needs to work well on its own and you insert the character in it and do whatever. They will know what and if such type of eco system is needed.

 

[Xerxes]

It is not just about the player though. The world is supposed to exist and run by itself even if the player is just sitting in a house for hundreads of hours. Events are not focused on the player. The game is not run by the player and not everything happens for him. In the end the world needs to work well on its own and you insert the character in it and do whatever. They will know what and if such type of eco system is needed.

Most AAA titles have a budget about 200 mils behind, so they can afford to spend money on what ever they want and not care about the experience. BG does not have unlimited resources, and the only thing keep them together is their spirit or Mettle. (pun?)

Surely it may give the npcs some hidden depth, it does not provide anything to make the game feel better. Just as I don't see why uncharted has to make HD texture for all the bottles and tables that only appear once and no one ever notices; it would be a waste to spend time on this. Remember, for any contractors, they run on a money/time contract. If BG can make the game out a few weeks earlier, they will save a lot of money.

However, if there is an easy way around, let's say some kind of algorithm that monitors all the statues and run in the background quietly, and it is not only easy to program, but also will not break anything. Then be my guest. But I doubt it won't create any conflicts. Judging from my experience with project zomboid (another game with this meta game system in mind), every time they put one thing in, they breaks ten or even more components.

Eco system is a little bit too insignificant compare to other things they can tweak. Such as world events, world tendency, monster tendency, npc tendency and quest giver tendency. These if done correctly and clearly will give the player the incentive to play in a certain style.

I would suggest BG to think rationally and only add things that will affect player experience in a long run.

This being said, I would love it to death if BG decide to put the lore into item descriptions. Because, item description is the only thing I would read in any rpg ever. This may look small, but it really affect my desire to read into the lore.

 

[ZaratanCho]

They have said how they want and intend for the world to work so i was pretty much referring to that. Things happen(like the "quest" example) and you choose to involve yourself or not, if you stumble upon this situation at all. Even if you don't, this will proceed anyway and consequences will reflect upon the world(and Potentially you). You make your experiance. I think it will be a very free game, it will not be "Go this place", and when you go there a fully scripted situation awaits you. They can judge there limits themselves, I can't. What the game will be when it is released will be revealed then.

 

[Xerxes]

Even if you don't, this will proceed anyway and consequences will reflect upon the world(and Potentially you).

To put meta game in a nerdy knowledge for dummies way; the game developer will make all the game locations into a matrix like structure, so that simple but realistic interactions will happen all over the game without needing the processing power of NASA super computers. However, too complicated geographical structure, too much interacting variables will create tons of bugs. For something like the eco system, which is really insignificant, they would have a better time just make it with a simple algorithm than making a full simulation. Its effect on gamer is also minimum.

And also, here is another problem with a system as complex and needlessly detailed as this, it will cause the butterfly effect. It is so complicated to the point that it seems random. Sure, maybe raised meat price will make a mean landlord kill a few slaves, and then the slaves family will assassinate him as revenge. From the player's perspective, it is the same as having the meat price rising up and down in a sine trigonometry function. In fact, it would be much better.

The real world eco system is so complicated that it will sway from its equilibrium point to the extreme in a matter of months without considering many balancing factors such as the adaption of species, illness, weather change, invasive species and so on. It is utterly pointless to make a realistic function for that. (In fact, no such function exists, because any engineering programs are based on a lot of assumptions of which many are very situational and limited; the more it is idiot proof the less reliable it is.)

If the dev really feel like putting these into the game, and if i'm in their position. I would just make a eco variable based on a simple function of time that will slowly make the game harder or easier depends on how many monsters the player have killed vs the total play time. Then make meat price, chance of starving wolves attacking villages, and other relevant events based on that.

Meta system is great, but it has its limits. The simulation needs to be simplified a lot to work as intended.