Exanima Combat, Thoughts, Suggestions

Gugi

Member
Hello All,

Long story short, a friend directed me to exanima, I was curious and purchased it, then played the novice/expert arena or some hours. I love it, but I also see big problems, let me explain myself.

I should point out that I am aware the game is at a very early stage, but please bare with me.

The physics works beautifully, performance is flawless, and the feel of everything is realistic. The problem is everything is realistic "after" you perform an action, not the action performed.

i) I mainly played with a longsword (2-handed, like the german longsword). My first question would be to ask "Why would someone swing a 2-handed sword with an unbalanced, full force motion?" One tries to get the sword to contact with the neck, or openings in the armor, once the contact is made a relatively minor pressure is enough to "cut deep", if they are wearing heavy armor no matter how hard you hit you will not cut them unless you manage to contact that thin bare skin just underneath the helm (depends on the helm). This might be asking for too much detail, however at least the 2-handed sword could be a faster more balanced weapon.

ii) The major problem I see with combat is this, imagine a hypothetical scenario, your opponent has executed a swing and missed you, his right side is wide open. In the current game I have basically 3 options, swing the sword while (standing, small step back or forward, dash back or forward). The problem is that you see this case very often, standing and small steps does not cover enough distance for the blade to contact the opponent, however dash covers an excess amount of distance and the hilt of the sword contacts the opponent. Thus we have missed a perfect kill swing.

This is the simplest of cases, sometimes your opponent just finishes an overhead swing which you guard with your sword to your left, where your sword is underneath his weapon, assume he is leaning forward and unbalanced, thus not having an opportunity to block our weapon comfortably. Now when I tell the character to execute a left to right swing, the logical swing would be to lift the sword up toward his underarm and score a hit, or if the position permits even go to the neck. However what we see is that our character insists on executing that left to right horizontal swing, usually getting tangled with the opponent and missing the opportunity.


This unfortunately removes a lot of realism and enthusiasm, apart from excessive CPU/GPU power and insane controller skills like (2 mice + keyboard) the only way I see to circumvent this problem would be with implementation of skills.

Say, one implements a skill named "Perception", and this skill triggers certain moves, say the probability of triggering a move goes with (Perception Skill) % to a maximum of 80%. Then when say our weapon is in a very favorable position, and the player executes the correct directional command (left to right swing in the previous example) then the character immediately goes for an underarm, or neck cut whichever is possible and favorable.

Your thoughts and comments are appreciated...
 

Greenbrog

Insider
Character motion is addressed in the next patch. And you can make your weapon do much more than what you said, but it takes practice. My favorite is a feinted swing into a shortened snap downwards swing. It's not a true overhead, much faster. Either way You have a lot more than 3 options. .I like to make diving leg sweeps, that turn into rising headshots, regularly 2 shot things in armor with a sword. And there won't be any "procs" in this game, if you want something to happen, you have to make it happen. No "80%" chance of something happening. When you use a static camera how your character moves and swings, changes completely from holding space bar or even tapping it regularly. Space bar really is best used to only remove blind spots from walls. While I'm happy as a community member that you like the game, it sounds like a combination of practice and probably more so, the up coming patch will resolve much of you issues. While thrusting isn't implimented yet, there are significant movement twerk and unarmed fighting being added, along with more skills, with shield skills also being planned but not implimented yet. Right now is just a baby version of the combat system to be implimented.
 

Bullethead

Member
This unfortunately removes a lot of realism and enthusiasm, apart from excessive CPU/GPU power and insane controller skills like (2 mice + keyboard) the only way I see to circumvent this problem would be with implementation of skills.

Say, one implements a skill named "Perception", and this skill triggers certain moves, say the probability of triggering a move goes with (Perception Skill) % to a maximum of 80%. Then when say our weapon is in a very favorable position, and the player executes the correct directional command (left to right swing in the previous example) then the character immediately goes for an underarm, or neck cut whichever is possible and favorable.

Your thoughts and comments are appreciated...
My $0.02....

On the whole HEMA vs. Hollywood fighting style thing....
I've seen a game where they are trying to go all HEMA, apparently the 1st major attempt at this in a realtime 1st person game. However, due to the limitations of both the interface and hardware in general, they're having to go for rather less than full realism there. They can really only do the unarmored techniques even though everybody is wearing armor, and they're not even sure they can do polearms. So, despite there being actual HEMA moves in there, it still looks unrealistic to HEMA cognoscenti.

This doesn't, however, keep it from being fun to play. And the same goes for Exanima. Both do their fights quite well, both still require to learn to fence under their own rules, and both are lots of fun. Remember that they're games, not real life, and it will still be some years before it's possible to go all Fiore, Talhoffer, and Capoferro in games. So enjoy the games for the entertainment they provide and leave it at that. If you're amongst the HEMA cognoscenit, you might find it helpful to consider playing Exanima as learning to fence in another style not found in dusty old treatises (more on this below).

As to "triggered sequences".....
I agree with @Greenbrog, all character motions should come from the player (and physics-based interactions with the rest of the game world).

Also remember that the enemies work under the same rules you do. Everybody's moves are the same, their reactions are determined by the same formulae, etc. This, combined with the physics-based nature of the world, makes Exanima an actual fencing game, even if it doesn't look a thing like a HEMA fight. You have to out-think and out-maneuver your opponent, which is possible because you can learn what you're both capable of and how to arrange various moves in order to achieve the desired results. Even without the look of HEMA, it still all boils down to the classic fencing parameters of time, distance, flow, and structure.

These parameters have different values in Exanima than they do in real life, so you have to learn them. But once you do, you apply them the same way as in real life. Once you're able to do that, suddenly the non-HEMA look of Exanima fights no longer matters at all to you. You've accepted Exanima as its own style of fencing, you've become reasonably proficient with that style, and because you obviously like fencing or you wouldn't be into HEMA anyway, you really start enjoying the game.
 
Big swinging cuts in games tend to be for the benefit of game balance. If there's no wind up, how do you expect players to not become frustrated when they're taken out by a quick thrust they could have no hope of seeing? They need tells so the player can make decisions and not feel like they're being cheated. Plus, isn't it just fun when a massive looking swing connects with your opponent's face?
 

Gugi

Member
Dear All,

I greatly appreciate your comments.

@Greenbrog: Can you provide me some hints about how to execute the moves you are mentioning? I might not have realized but e.g. moving the mouse diagonally up rather than horizontally do you get a diagonal cut?

@Bullethead: I am not a HEMA cognoscenti, I like the idea of HEMA but I do not think it is practiced in a professional manner yet, it needs a touch of physical sciences and kinesiology to get out of the "Dusty Treatises" stage.

I am a physicist however, and I tried to focus on modifying the speed rate of the longsword in my comments on the longsword rather than the HEMA aspect. I think Alphanoobmeric's comment gives a clever justification to the current implementation and I agree.

@Alphanoobmeric: Thank You, that clarifies the issue.

And overall, I am aware this is a game, and I really enjoyed the combat. Otherwise I would not spend time playing in the Arena. My major concern is possible frustration to the player. The basis of the frustration would be due to the control mechanism.

I agree with the fact that "everything manually controlled" is more challenging and fun however NPC's will always do what they are scripted to do. If the player wants to execute a certain move and repeatedly finds the character executing a motion that was not intended it might be a problem, especially if the fight is planned to achieve that final strike, only to get tangled with the opponent. I do not know how the game is coded and I believe BareMettle will do an excellent job, however as more swings and their instructions are added chances of unintended executions will increase.

Your thoughts and comments are appreciated...
 
I disagree with "NPC's will always do what they are scripted to do", as it does not match what I observed. When the AI wants to swing in one way or another it can execute it more accurately than a human, but it can still make mistakes. Some NPC hit the walls or object, trip on the junk on the ground, etc. I can confidently state that at my current skill level it would be hard to distinguish a character I control from an undead :p

As to "getting tangled with the opponent" - it's great that this can happen! Smashing into the opponent is a viable defense strategy IMO - instead of being hit by that sharp sword tip traveling fast, you smash into enemy and at worst get hit a bit by the cross-guard. I've both done the maneuver myself and had NPCs do it, so it does look fair.

I don't think that controls need to be simplified. I remember when I started playing Dark Souls on a pad I sucked terribly, as it was a completely unfamiliar way to control a character. With persistence, I got quite decent and learned to appreciate the control scheme. Exanima has, in my opinion, even steeper learning curve than DS, which only means it is more rewarding once you learn. It's just matter of practice and patience.

My only worry is that the controls will make this game very inaccessible to wide audience, thus negatively impacting the sales. If there ever is an "easy mode" to help with this, it shouldn't mess with controls but, for example, make NPC deal less damage or you deal more.
 

Greenbrog

Insider
Example. If you tap crouch at the right time during a swing you will duck and do a leg sweep It's very hard to block. If you are moving towards them or at a diagonal you can make it a lunging leg sweep, if you release crouch and stand up right st the end of the sweep your weapon will be low, and doing the second attack to a double attack can make a rising diagonal attack. This second attack also seems harder to block than most swings.

If your camera is static. Then your cursor becomes a guide for the plane you will move your weapon. Not only do you guide it along the path of your swing for a faster swing but the shape of the swing too. This type of control takes a long time to master. And will be smoother and more controlled with the next patches movement updates.
 

Greenbrog

Insider
The mace and shield guy in the expert arena does a move I haven't been able to master which is when in a clinch he likes to do a low wrapping attack that hits your calf, very hard to block and can be done in contact with the other player. He does this with a weapon that is very long for a one-hander, the arena flanged mace has even better reach than a one-handed sword and he can belt you in a clinch.
 
What I really think this game needs is a weapons master room. Have an NPC demonstrate a move and have you repeat it on a dummy. That would show folks what can be done and let them practice without having to restart all the time.
 
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