Found a way to enable follow camera in combat

[Soren]

I think you misunderstood what he was trying to convey. He's saying cursor movements become less precise with a moving camera. Yes, you can do both simultaneously but doing so is undesirable because of this lack of precision. This is also the same point I've been repeating endlessly.

Try to hit this ball in the air with your mouse cursor as precisely as you can:

Now try this:

While hyperbolic, that's what it comes down to. The one has a static camera relative to the world, the other to your target.

 

[TwoPumpWarrior]

I would rather do the work than let the game do it for me. I think the bottom simply takes control from the character. Maybe I don't want to follow the enemy that closely at that moment, maybe I have another strategy in mind. Regardless, to me this is akin to aim assist and I can't support that.

 

[Soren]

I would rather do the work than let the game do it for me. I think the bottom simply takes control from the character. Maybe I don't want to follow the enemy that closely at that moment, maybe I have another strategy in mind. Regardless, to me this is akin to aim assist and I can't support that.

Well, it doesn't absolutely take away any control as you can still compensate yourself for the camera rotation (i.e. it doesn't provide any hard limt), but otherwise yes, you are absolutely correct, which is why I stated that the most valid criticism I can think of is that it made it too easy. The ball in the above gif moves very fast though, faster than I imagine any opponent in Sui Generis would, but still, it's a valid concern.

 

[Blodetsprutar]

Well, it doesn't take away control as you can still compensate yourself for the camera rotation (i.e. it doesn't provide any hard limt), but otherwise yes, you are absolutely correct, which is why I stated that the most valid criticism I can think of is that it made it too easy. The ball in the above gif moves very fast though, faster than I imagine any opponent in Sui Generis would, but still, it's a valid concern.

Why not make cursor relative to world then? As to keep absolute control

 

[Murf]

While hyperbolic, that's what it comes down to. The one has a static camera relative to the world, the other to your target.

It does not come down to that at all. you are using a 2D example to justify our idea in a 3d situation.

Apples and oranges.

 

[Soren]

Why not make cursor relative to world then? As to keep absolute control

I figure it comes down to what feels most intuitive (and I worry a cursor moving with the world might become too frustrating). No matter what, I get the feeling that delving further into that would be a bit moot at this point.

It does not come down to that at all. you are using a 2D example to justify our idea in a 3d situation.

Apples and oranges.

It is the exact same thing in a 3d situation. The extra dimension wouldn't change it at all (or actually just make it harder to hit precisely in the first scenario). I'd make a 3D gif for you but (to the surprise of many, I'm sure) there's even limits to how much time I'm ready to invest in this thing.

 

[Tony]

Try to hit this ball in the air with your mouse cursor as precisely as you can:

Now try this:

While hyperbolic, that's what it comes down to. The one has a static camera relative to the world, the other to your target.

This example has nothing to do with the issue at hand. The control scheme in Exanima is not based around quickly clicking on a moving object so this is a poor example. I can make a better comparison using actual in-game footage; one video of trying to perform precise movements with the spacebar held down (to force camera rotation) and another repeating the same movements while the camera is stationary. Guess which will be easier and more precise? Even without doing the test I can already tell you the answer.

 

[Soren]

But with the spacebar held down, you are using the mouse to rotate the camera, which is why that solution isn't very ideal when trying to swing the mouse to attack as well. And I didn't say you should click the gif, strike the cursor over it all you want, circle it, avoid it, it's all yours to toy with.

 

[Blodetsprutar]

I figure it comes down to what feels most intuitive (and I worry a cursor moving with the world might become too frustrating). No matter what, I get the feeling that delving further into that would be a bit moot at this point.

Wouldnt you make the same input comparatively? Having cursor fixed relative to you and camera fixed on world you need to aim with your mouse on a strafing target, now the opposite, camera free from world and cursor fixed on world you need to aim with the mouse as much as before, giving the same gameplay features.

Ofcourse it wouldnt

 

[Tony]

But with the spacebar held down, you are using the mouse to rotate the camera, which is why that solution isn't very ideal when trying to swing the mouse to attack as well. And I didn't say you should click the gif, strike the cursor over it all you want, circle it, avoid it, it's all yours to toy with.

Again, you're missing the point. It is obviously easier to make precise movements with a stationary camera as opposed to a moving one. Does anyone really not understand this concept or...?

 

[Soren]

Wouldnt you make the same input comparatively? Having cursor fixed relative to you and camera fixed on world you need to aim with your mouse on a strafing target, now the opposite, camera free from world and cursor fixed on world you need to aim with the mouse as much as before, giving the same gameplay features.

I can't readily think of a way of demonstrating that through a gif that you interact with yourself - beyond the images you already made, I would have to make a mini game to demonstrate it. But when saying it might seem counter-intuitive, it's because you would then have to "fight" the cursor movement since it moved itself on screen while the camera rotated.

 

[Blodetsprutar]

I can't readily think of a way of demonstrating that through a gif that you interact with yourself - beyond the images you already made, I would have to make a mini game to demonstrate it. But when saying it might seem counter-intuitive, it's because you would then have to "fight" the cursor movement since it moved itself on screen while the camera rotated.

Cant you say that, as the system is now, you "fight" the cursor because the opponent just moves away from it comparatively

 

[Soren]

Cant you say that, as the system is now, you "fight" the cursor because the opponent just moves away from it comparatively

It's actually a more basic, intuitive level I'm thinking of - to have the game move the cursor for you while you yourself try to move it in another direction just feels as struggling with your input. It could work, perhaps even create an interesting effect, but I think the only way to tell is by experiencing it.

 

[Blodetsprutar]

but I think the only way to tell is by experiencing it.

Yes that would be pretty nice, just a really simple flashgame with blobs and a directional arrow

 

[El Maco]

It is obviously easier to make precise movements with a stationary camera as opposed to a moving one.

Do we even need pixel perfect aiming with the mouse? To me the combat is more about timing, reading the opponent and finding openings in their defenses, working with the feet to produce momentum for the blows, that sort of thing. None of that seems to require ultra precise aiming. I just beat the expert arena with an xbox controller and an automatically rotating camera. Trust me I am totally unable to aim precisely with this setup I know I'm probably playing the game all wrong but my style is more natural to me, at least for the time being.

 

[Tony]

Do we even need pixel perfect aiming with the mouse? To me the combat is more about timing, reading the opponent and finding openings in their defenses, working with the feet to produce momentum for the blows, that sort of thing. None of that seems to require ultra precise aiming. I just beat the expert arena with an xbox controller and an automatically rotating camera. Trust me I am totally unable to aim precisely with this setup I know I'm probably playing the game all wrong but my style is more natural to me, at least for the time being.

Beating expert arena is great and congrats! However, one can play "sloppily" and still defeat the expert arena; doing so does not mean you've reached the highest skill level possible and it does not represent the most difficult challenge that will be present in SG and Exanima.

But yes, precise control will become even more necessary when things like thrusts and ranged attacks are implemented. Likewise, imagine trying to fight in a group with an ally; precision allows you to do so without accidentally hitting your ally instead of the opponents.

A lack of precision will be much more noticeable in the dungeon than in the arena. You don't have to worry about navigating tight corridors and avoiding objects in the arena. You also don't have to face off against multiple opponents in the arena. All of the enemies in the dungeon so far are relatively easy (zombies, skeletons) but after the blue portal there will be much more difficult opponents so precision will become even more important if you want to survive.

Also, since we're giving examples of gameplay... I've managed to defeat four and five opponents simultaneously in the dungeon thanks to the precise controls. With a control scheme that is less precise it is highly unlikely that I would have been able to do so since one mistake would have equaled death. A precise control scheme allows more advanced and skillful gameplay.

 

[Murf]

I got three v ME in the dungeon. Because of all this discussion I tried m hardest to NOT use the spacebar. Wasn't able to always not sue it, but much less than usual. Was still fun

 

[ErlKing]

I don't know about advanced techniques or expert control, but I simply cant play without turning camera toward opponent, just cant. I read about you guys suggesting trying it and getting used to for further precise fighting, but I fail even with basic stuff. I've tried over and over and over and over, but instead of actually playing I keep fighting with controls and this is just frustrating.

I understand camera-3d cursor problem and mostly satisfied with current controls (when I use space to fix camera now and then). I am simply stating that fighting with fixed camera without touching space does not work for me personally.

In all videos that I saw on youtube everybody keep turning cam toward opponent, maybe not as often as I do, but still everybody turn. Have I got wrong impression from that and majority of players actually stick to intended controls?

 

[El Maco]

doing so does not mean you've reached the highest skill level possible and it does not represent the most difficult challenge that will be present in SG and Exanima.

I realize this and it certainly wasn't my intention to come across as an expert of the game... because the exact opposite is true. I'm just expressing some support for the automatic camera camp and that's all. In fact I think that the "hidden" camera follow feature is already very close to being useful (i.e. close to being better than the manual camera mode). With some tweaking it might become a reasonable alternative to have.

 

[Madoc]

I posted this video on the insider forum controls thread but I figured it had some relevance to this topic too, so I'll just paste it over.

* * *

I'm working on some combat mechanics and while testing I decided to record a few fights to show my aggressive play style and some of the moves discussed some time ago. Don't overanalyse it please, I didn't do well, I was totally thrown off by the sudden drop to 30 fps when I hit record, I just picked up that sword which I never use and the AI has some unfair advantages because I'm using WIP broken mechanics/controls (I can't let go of LMB mid swing to parry and even a good blow doesn't interrupt their attacks).

Anyway, this is how I play and it can be very effective, especially against multiple opponents (and I think in PvP). It's the kind of play the control system is designed to support, it is fundamentally different from the typical face your opponent and attack you see in games. The controls and the physics add a new dimension to the combat and that's the whole point. The combat is driven by actual forces and collisions, it's not a binary system of "if not block and range < x then damage = y".

You can outmanoeuvre your opponents and bypass their guard without waiting for them to miss you, it's very rare they can land a solid blow and if you hit from unexpected angles the opponents won't know how or even if to defend. That said this is not always practical in tight spaces and you can see I revert to a more basic combat style when there's no room to manoeuvre around my opponent. This should be more viable in the later Exanima content and of course SG.