Music and Sounds

[the0thMonkey]

Okay, here's a topic that has not seen a lot of discussion on this forum. I know the game is pre-alpha so this can be dealt with much later on, but I think it's a good idea to have a place to post ideas and suggestions about this as the game is developed.

Music is really important for creating mood in a game, but it gets talked about a lot less because it is much more subconscious. I think an effective strategy is dynamic music that fits your current activity. For example, strolling along a cobblestone road on a sunny day with cheery music playing vs. exploring a dark dungeon after having encountered skeletons with sinister and tense music playing.

Some issues to do with music are repetition and inappropriate use. Most games that feature dynamic music need minimalistic soundtracks to avoid songs that once sounded great becoming really worn out and sickening. This was used effectively in Skyrim, for instance. Sometimes, the dynamism was too great however. The happy tune while on the road turned sinister and alerted you to the presence of a wolf/dragon etc that you would not otherwise have been aware of. This reduces realism and in this game in particular, would be an issue.

The actual music content itself should make sense based on the environment or local lore. The videos did a good job of this. Drums and woodwind flutes, etc.

Now onto sounds. This is also a sensitive issue which can be done really well or poorly. I don't have much to say on this issue so I leave it open to discussion!

Begin!

 

[MrIdontKnow]

If you watch the pitch video, when the character goes to fight the knight, the music changes, as well with the orge, it looks like Bare Mettle have already got most of the sounds covered!

 

[Sunpeece]

I agree that Elder Scrolls warns you of impending doom too much with music. I would like Sui Generis to have the "cheerful" mood music to have a touch of suspense, and the music to change when the player is definitely aware of an enemy. Imagine the "cheery" mood music ironically playing as you spot an enemy and you both prepare for your first swing. Your subconscious will focus on the ironically suspenseful part of the track during this time, without any effort on the game's part. Once the first hit is struck the music changes.

For music that will be playing over and over again, I feel Dwarf Fortress did an excellent job with their menu music, I could listen to it over and over again without getting annoyed.

I'm also a fan of atmospheric music and sound, it really transports you into the world. Instead of having some fantastic epic orchestra playing during a battle, it could be drums adhering to the culture of the area. On the other hand, if you're in the underworld the music will get a little more fitting. For example, reaching a huge, mysterious, elemental, powerful, terrifying demon deep in the underworld would warrant the archetypical orchestra epic music.

Bare Mettle, if you want an excellent example of how music and sound can influence the experience of an art form, look up this Wikipedia article on Citizen Kane (scroll down to filmmaking innovations). Since the movie garnered a lot of popularity, there is extensive research on it's techniques...which can also be applied to games.

 

[Bethain]

Seems like a good place for me to jump in.

Agreed, music is important and should be tailored to suit the mood set by environments and events in game. Agreed, music needs to be dynamic, long pieces of music playing on repeat doesn't cut the mustard, especially not for this game.

We have considered many ways to implement a functional and dynamic musical system and it is still somewhat of a work in progress. Madoc has already coded a loop (I use the term loop lightly, they may just be individual blocks of music that can't actually loop repeatedly without sounding rubbish, but I'll refer to them as loops here for ease) based tool with a nice, simple interface that I can use for linking the loops together in a dynamic way that makes sense for a game. So far it works better with shorter loops that can repeat easily, rather than long, sprawling orchestral ones that can't. We plan to introduce many more advanced features though, allowing us to set strict conditions as to when a loop can play, how it will fade in/out or link directly, what other loops can precede or follow it, how many times it can repeat (if at all) etc. The loops will then be grouped by mood, location, activity etc. allowing us to have a highly dynamic and reactive score that will hopefully remain seamless and easy on the ear even on the Nth playthrough. Sounds ambitious but we are confident it can be done without too many problems.

In terms of general musical tone for the game we are thinking dark, baroque classical with some authentic mediaeval instrumentation in parts. Nothing too epic and overblown, but as you say Sunpeece, tailored nicely for the location and/or event. We may add a slightly more modern twist in some parts too but it will have to be very, very subtle.

In terms of sound design I don't have too much to say at this point either but will be interested to read any thoughts and suggestions on this and the music.

All the best

 

[BrecMadak]

Best soundtrack ever done to a game hands down would goes to Matt Uelmen, Diablo. All tracks are magnificently composed that once you start hearing that hellish music, there is no way forgetting it again untill you die. Of corpse, we can not expect that high level musicianship from SG, but right music to be set for X mood would lead SG to success.

Music in games for me is very important aspect since it effects your psychology throughout the time you spent in the game, and whats left on your mind after a break would be music itself again. So since there is no escape, considering you won't totally turn off music, just as implementing AI and balance, songwriting should not be overlooked, or treated as if it's a stepchild in any form i'd say !

Nice thread hereby.

Other honourable mentions;

Steve Roach
Brian Eno
Suspended Memories
Ben Houge
Eric Brosius
Paul Romero
Motoi Sakuraba

Edit: I got sick of hearing 'cheerful' music in games which is pretty much common unfortunately; but with a realistic world such as SG just won't work. The music we need should generally be eerie, bloodcurdling one spiced up with unrestful and cold at times. Very few could capture that spirit, i have no doubts from BM regarding this hopefully.

 

[Psychomorph]

Personally I"m an immersion guy, means music off and hearing the birds singing, but if the music is not over dominant, but subtle and ambient, than it adds to the experience and I keep it on.
One thing I really dislike though is if you engage in combat and the music changes to a more dynamic and faster type. Totally brings me out of balance. In fact I really hate that very much and would prefer if the action music was toggle-able.

This is a nice piece. I absolutely love deep meditative drums. There's nothing like it.

Eric Brosius

Oh yeah, the music work in Thief is brilliant.

 

[Tony]

Wow, awesome song, Psychomorph! Thanks for sharing

 

[Psychomorph]

There's always so much cool stuff out there and you don't know this until someone posts a link.


Here a nice minimalistic atmospheric ambient piece from Thief: 5:07 - 5:22

 

[Mimel]

I agree about he music.

Now, on to sounds... I would prefer to have the world full of sounds that match the environment, weather, room, etc. A tavern should have the main focus on the conversations, laughter, footsteps, cooking, shouts from the kitchen, bar. The sounds should not just be a random soundtrack, but rather sounds that match the NPCs and action happening in that particular place. Stereo sounds is a must, like in Thief. Being able to tell where a guard or monster is coming from can help. Although, with the top-down view I'm not sure how effective this can be.

 

[Sunpeece]

I agree about he music.

Now, on to sounds... I would prefer to have the world full of sounds that match the environment, weather, room, etc. A tavern should have the main focus on the conversations, laughter, footsteps, cooking, shouts from the kitchen, bar. The sounds should not just be a random soundtrack, but rather sounds that match the NPCs and action happening in that particular place. Stereo sounds is a must, like in Thief. Being able to tell where a guard or monster is coming from can help. Although, with the top-down view I'm not sure how effective this can be.

It can be very effective. Researchers have found that when we hear things behind us, our ears form the audio waves into a different, recognizable pattern. This pattern can be duplicated in media and our brains instantly recognize the sound as coming from behind.

 

[Pilluminati]

I agree about he music.

Now, on to sounds... I would prefer to have the world full of sounds that match the environment, weather, room, etc. A tavern should have the main focus on the conversations, laughter, footsteps, cooking, shouts from the kitchen, bar. The sounds should not just be a random soundtrack, but rather sounds that match the NPCs and action happening in that particular place. Stereo sounds is a must, like in Thief. Being able to tell where a guard or monster is coming from can help. Although, with the top-down view I'm not sure how effective this can be.

This! Good environmental sounds can add extremely much to the game.
Not only are they extremely relaxing, but if used in the way you described they would add so much to the immersion.

 

[Mimel]

It can be very effective. Researchers have found that when we hear things behind us, our ears form the audio waves into a different, recognizable pattern. This pattern can be duplicated in media and our brains instantly recognize the sound as coming from behind.

Yes, I agree. I know the sounds can be effective, but I meant if we are not using the first person view, will the stereo effects help us distinguish from which direction things come? Suppose we are zoomed out and looking at our character from the front, will the sound then compensate and come from the direction of our avatars perspective (his right) or from our (the user's) view (our left)?

It could be confusing.

 

[Mimel]

Yes, I agree. I know the sounds can be effective, but I meant if we are not using the first person view, will the stereo effects help us distinguish from which direction things come? Suppose we are zoomed out and looking at our character from the front, will the sound then compensate and come from the direction of our avatars perspective (his right) or from our (the user's) view (our left)?

It could be confusing.

Hmm, thinking more into this...I think it should be only from our perspective.

 

[Jonathan]

Speaking from a more compositional perspective rather than the programming and stuff involved; distinguishable music from fantasy/rpg games have strong thematic material that can be interwoven, however subtly and with however much variation needed throughout the entire game's story/landscape to link various events/characters/histories together. Even in background ambient music for locations the music still has to have the right melodic and harmonic elements and the orchestration can make or break good melodic content which is not to be overlooked. Some composers get these things wrong because they are not gamers and especially not gamers of the genre they are writing for. Of course, the composers inner ear for being able to create good melodies in the first place is something not all composers possess, despite how musically "clever" they can become.

This video is quite interesting;

 

[Madoc]

Regarding the sound environment, we use positional 3D audio from using the viewer's (your) orientation but positioned on the character. After some experimentation this proved most effective. We support 3D audio and reverb effects etc., the videos don't seem to capture the sound very well but there's a subtle (compared to most games) reverb effect in the dungeon.

 

[666jet]

Im going to listen to rhapsody of fire sometimes when playing lols

 

[MangoMarr]

This is a fantastic thread that has been driving force for making me sign up.

The gothic, baroque themes and dynamic musical score ideas give me great hope for this game; it seems its headed very much in the same direction as Matt Uelman - as suggested by BrecMadak further up. No musical score has ever so perfectly matched the gameplay experience as in Diablo 1 and 2. Bethain, I'm expecting amazing things from you - have it known that I am supremely jealous of the opportunity you have here.

From a sound design standpoint, I'd love to see two things in particular:
- Truly intimidating roars from that huge flailing juggernaut guy, especially if he's just killed you.
- Shepard scales used sporadically as ambience (especially in interior areas); I've never heard these in a game but they can be so effective at creating this eery and unworldly atmosphere that this game seems to be striving for.

Obviously I could prattle on all day about music / sound design but it's not my job and I've got such strong faith in this development team on this topic that I don't feel the need to chime in all that much.

 

[SRJR]

I turn music off for the same reasons as Psychomorph, and I completely agree about the minimalism. A long stretch of silence can remind a player of the serenity (or tension) of the moment. Besides, any music gets tiresome- minecraft's music plays less than half the time, but I still got sick of each track.

As far as sound effects go, few games have mastered physics collisions. Most games either have weak collision sounds (Half Life 2) or they have the same good strong sounds for all collisions; both light and heavy objects, at any speed.

There's an old saying in film that "sound is 60% of a movie"- that audio is even more important than the picture. I agree. Watch any scary or emotional movie with the sound off... the effect is profound.

 

[Psychomorph]

As far as sound effects go, few games have mastered physics collisions. Most games either have weak collision sounds (Half Life 2) or they have the same good strong sounds for all collisions; both light and heavy objects, at any speed.

Speaking about Half-Life 2, I love it how if you enter the next level or section, there is this really awesome, atmospheric and eerie music introduction, which fades out and you continue to play in peace and silence. Absolutely fantastic.

There's an old saying in film that "sound is 60% of a movie"- that audio is even more important than the picture. I agree. Watch any scary or emotional movie with the sound off... the effect is profound.

There are some films that do it the other way. No music. This can be extremely powerful as well.

 

[Kaizer0002]

If the game has audio that gives me vital information as well as a music track, I tend to turn the music off (DayZ, Minecraft, etc.). Between the two, I'd prefer extensive ambient sounds where music only exists where music is in the game. NWN was bad at this where you'd hear nothing outside a tavern but once you step inside you hear muffled voices from a nearly empty bar and music playing when there were no minstrels. I'd have preferred being able to hear muffled sounds when approaching the establishment and then having positional audio once inside.