Nomad
Member
Sorry, I guess I didn't read the "will".
Put in a saving function ASAP
- Thread starter Battery
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Murf
Moderator
apologies, was trying to be witty and parodying your AI director thread where ya said key word is 'exactly'.
Didn't come across well. Sounded funny as hell in my head though.
Sorry
My 2 cents to the discussion.
Exanima is a game where every conflict is a potentially lethal encounter. The result of a fight can be up to very minor things: a stumble, a poorly timed blow, an unintentional spin due to stepping too close to the crosshair - and you get an axe to the neck and die. In a game where 2 or 3 hits can kill - and where there's no way to heal after taking permanent damage - the lack of a save & load system is unmotivating.
I know you can usually avoid combat, but occasionally it does occur and it's NOT always a choice you make. I have died more than once after stumbling over some props while attempting to peacefully sidestep a zombie in my way.
The way I see it, there are 2 problems with permadeath in Exanima:
1) The combat system is organic and sometimes produces unexpected results - often with fatal (and permanent) consequences.
2) Starting over doesn't have much replay value since the environment is unchanged and spawn point is fixed.
Solving either of these points would improve the game experience. The Long Dark has a good permadeath system, where dying is permanent but a new play session spawns you in a different area of the open world so every game feels fresh. Spawning in a random spot of a dungeon would reduce repetition a little bit.
Another solution that I'd be perfectly fine with would be more frequent checkpoints. It would eliminate the frustration of going through those same old starting rooms over and over again, and would actually increase the feeling of progress you're making without completely removing the feeling of failure when dying.
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Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love the combat and the feeling of danger it carries! The physics-based fighting system is something I've wanted to experience again ever since Die By The Sword. It makes for some thrilling fights, close escapes, and, occasionally, hilarious failures (stumbling backwards over some wood beams, and subsequently receiving a merciless sledgehammer to the face).
This organic physics-based combat system that produces immersive, emergent gameplay is precisely the reason why permadeath is not an optimal solution in my opinion. As death is not always a result of your reckless choices or ham-handed fighting, it can feel very unrewarding to have to replay from the start just because you got unlucky and ran straight into 2 zombies in a doorway.
Exanima is a game where every conflict is a potentially lethal encounter. The result of a fight can be up to very minor things: a stumble, a poorly timed blow, an unintentional spin due to stepping too close to the crosshair - and you get an axe to the neck and die. In a game where 2 or 3 hits can kill - and where there's no way to heal after taking permanent damage - the lack of a save & load system is unmotivating.
I know you can usually avoid combat, but occasionally it does occur and it's NOT always a choice you make. I have died more than once after stumbling over some props while attempting to peacefully sidestep a zombie in my way.
The way I see it, there are 2 problems with permadeath in Exanima:
1) The combat system is organic and sometimes produces unexpected results - often with fatal (and permanent) consequences.
2) Starting over doesn't have much replay value since the environment is unchanged and spawn point is fixed.
Solving either of these points would improve the game experience. The Long Dark has a good permadeath system, where dying is permanent but a new play session spawns you in a different area of the open world so every game feels fresh. Spawning in a random spot of a dungeon would reduce repetition a little bit.
Another solution that I'd be perfectly fine with would be more frequent checkpoints. It would eliminate the frustration of going through those same old starting rooms over and over again, and would actually increase the feeling of progress you're making without completely removing the feeling of failure when dying.
---
Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love the combat and the feeling of danger it carries! The physics-based fighting system is something I've wanted to experience again ever since Die By The Sword. It makes for some thrilling fights, close escapes, and, occasionally, hilarious failures (stumbling backwards over some wood beams, and subsequently receiving a merciless sledgehammer to the face).
This organic physics-based combat system that produces immersive, emergent gameplay is precisely the reason why permadeath is not an optimal solution in my opinion. As death is not always a result of your reckless choices or ham-handed fighting, it can feel very unrewarding to have to replay from the start just because you got unlucky and ran straight into 2 zombies in a doorway.
J.G. Elmslie
Insider
I'm personally of the opinion some sort of save is desperately needed. Not a "quicksave" system, or anything, but something to be able to save progress - end of the level, perhaps, or something similar. Maybe even a limited number of saves. which can only be refreshed by reaching set points. (go up a level, a previously used save slot becomes unlocked again?)
As it is, the demo is not enjoyable. Its not "frustrating" - it rapidly becomes tiresome, a chore, and having an hour or two, even three hours of gameplay chucked away by one random encounter, throwing you right back to the start is not fun. its not beneficial to gameplay. I have better things to do with my life that return to the start every time some trivial event goes wrong
Replaying the same thing, again and again (Start again, open door, turn right, run along, go through doors, go get the keys, go to the same places with chests, try to find some decent bits of gear etc etc) does not contribute to player enjoyment, and I feel that it dissuades players from playing the game. In terms of design, marketing, and production, it harms the product.
I personally feel that there's nothing "hardcore" about that, as a design choice. When, for instance, I spend 2-odd hours slowly working my way through the entire first level, carefully avoiding most opponents, only to be confronted by one in padded armour, with a two-handed sword which instantly springs to attack (and of course, gleefully hacks me apart) right at the end of the level, it doesnt feel "hardcore". It feels spiteful. Dying at that point, knowing I've just wasted 2 hours for nothing, my reaction is "f*ck this sh*te". That is not good game design. Failure should make the player think "Damn! I want to go back and beat that!", not "Oh, hell no. I have to do all that again? Forget it. I quit."
It particularly leaves me worried about similar design decisions in Sui Generis will leave it an unplayable mess, forcing players back to a starting stage again and again. It was crap gameplay design in the 80's, its crap gameplay design nowadays.
As it is, the demo is not enjoyable. Its not "frustrating" - it rapidly becomes tiresome, a chore, and having an hour or two, even three hours of gameplay chucked away by one random encounter, throwing you right back to the start is not fun. its not beneficial to gameplay. I have better things to do with my life that return to the start every time some trivial event goes wrong
Replaying the same thing, again and again (Start again, open door, turn right, run along, go through doors, go get the keys, go to the same places with chests, try to find some decent bits of gear etc etc) does not contribute to player enjoyment, and I feel that it dissuades players from playing the game. In terms of design, marketing, and production, it harms the product.
I personally feel that there's nothing "hardcore" about that, as a design choice. When, for instance, I spend 2-odd hours slowly working my way through the entire first level, carefully avoiding most opponents, only to be confronted by one in padded armour, with a two-handed sword which instantly springs to attack (and of course, gleefully hacks me apart) right at the end of the level, it doesnt feel "hardcore". It feels spiteful. Dying at that point, knowing I've just wasted 2 hours for nothing, my reaction is "f*ck this sh*te". That is not good game design. Failure should make the player think "Damn! I want to go back and beat that!", not "Oh, hell no. I have to do all that again? Forget it. I quit."
It particularly leaves me worried about similar design decisions in Sui Generis will leave it an unplayable mess, forcing players back to a starting stage again and again. It was crap gameplay design in the 80's, its crap gameplay design nowadays.
NachoDawg
Member
I think the entire game feels like a chore right now to be honest. And i know why that is. It's because, as you pointed out, you do the same things every time. We are both disclosing the meta and finding the most efficient way to do things, and we are forced to repeat them again and again right now.
This wouldn't be a problem in Sui Generis, where you would have tonnes of directions to go and things to do. But right now in the very narrow hallway simulator: It's tedious as fudge.
I don't think we need a save function, or even a checkpoint system in the full game. Every play-through will have the possibility to be so different that you wont make the same decisions every single time you play
That's my two cents though
J.G. Elmslie
Insider
I think that will depend on how much of a "sandbox" SG is, and how much it is an open-world with goals that need to be followed for plot, narrative, etc. After all, even if there's 100 things to do right at the start, if you're repeatedly ending up back at the start, picking the same things, going through the same chargen, the same introductions, all that, that's going to be a chore.
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Tony
Insider
In SG the death mechanics will not work like they do in Exanima. In SG after death you wake up in a body that is basically a clone of the one you died in, though there will be negative consequences for dying so the player will want to avoid death at all costs. However, death does not equal game over in SG.
Also, checkpoints are already an option after each of the three levels (in Exanima) in the latest patch.
J.G. Elmslie
Insider
Any idea where to find that? I've certainly not found any such options in settings.
Ah yes, I vaguely recall reading that, now - thanks for the reminder.
I'm still rather worried that its going to be a constant case of being thrown back, having hours of gameplay wasted, and that it will become extremely tedious.
Tony
Insider
Are you using version 0.5.0.9 patch? If so, there's a checkmark option that must be enabled in the game settings menu. Says something along the lines of "Enable Checkpoints".
The game has retained its non-save gameplay but at the same time caters for a substantial part of the player-base, which brings it a step closer to a commercial success that sees the game actually made in the first place?
The horror!
As long as it's optional it should be fine. This games needs the 'plebeian' masses, or customers as I call them.
NachoDawg
Member
No. How the game allows itself to play affects the entire consumer base. The rewarding feeling someone get from beating a game on its hardest is cheapend by someone else winning the game in half the time. It affects how the game is viewed in media, recieved by critics and it sets a tone in the community on how 'hardcore' or 'casual' the game is.
That was not a comment on weather the game should have checkpoints or not, just a thought. I personally think that the devs aren't unfallible and they brought on a community for feed-back for a reason. What we need to trust them on is that they can test the game on us early players and conclude the best choices for their vision while still having a game that is enjoyable for most of us in the intended target audience.
ridikyuhlus
Member
rofl, what the **** am I reading. Is this a website for a cult?
Did someone invoke Poe's law while I was away?
Did someone invoke Poe's law while I was away?
Elaxter
Insider
Precisely! If there's an optional checkpoint system, then it kinda cheapens the whole "I beat the game!" aspect. Sure you can say you didn't use checkpoints, but everyone will think you did! And even if you did beat the game without checkpoints, there is someone who did the exact same thing with half the effort because "bleh game is hard."
Basically what we're trying to say is that the devs shouldn't dumb down the game for anyone in anyway. Checkpoints in the early zones only is good for helping a player get their feet, but after the 3rd level, checkpoints should be far apart or non-existent.
You can say fuck, mom isn't watching.
Basically what we're trying to say is that the devs shouldn't dumb down the game for anyone in anyway. Checkpoints in the early zones only is good for helping a player get their feet, but after the 3rd level, checkpoints should be far apart or non-existent.
Interesting. Didn't know people play these games for the purpose of showing off their victory screen.. I sort off know that speed runs is a thing but I didn't know how great motivational aspect it can be. I guess you learn something new every day.
How about having a end-screen with a note somewhere that checkpoints were not enabled and maybe even stats like time taken, enemies killed, potions consumed, damage received etc. to brag about by the hardcore attention seekers?
How about having a end-screen with a note somewhere that checkpoints were not enabled and maybe even stats like time taken, enemies killed, potions consumed, damage received etc. to brag about by the hardcore attention seekers?
ridikyuhlus
Member
What you're trying to say is dumb shit that makes no sense.
Bare Mettle should get its dogs under control before it causes any more damage to the Exanima community.
Bare Mettle should get its dogs under control before it causes any more damage to the Exanima community.
ShaolinG
Member
Every time I see "there should be permadeath" comment, I just wonder how people don't respect their lifetime. It's a great game, but there are other games and whole real life. How many people will start the game again if they lose 10 hours? Not many. There shouldn't be manual save/load, but permadeath is stupid idea too.
Vold
Insider
@ShaolinG It depends on how you play the game. Personally, I play the game to have fun, and that does not necessarily mean to finish it up. It is not like I play the game over and over again because I die, if I die I try another day. To be honest I have much more fun doing this that way than playing anything else out there on the market, for instance, DAI... I have it installed and it almost kills me of boredom after 30 minutes of gameplay.
It is funny but even acomplishing something in another game is boring in comparison to a well deserved death in Exanima; I understand that this not may be the case for other people, but I am pretty sure I am not the only one that feels this way.
It is funny but even acomplishing something in another game is boring in comparison to a well deserved death in Exanima; I understand that this not may be the case for other people, but I am pretty sure I am not the only one that feels this way.
