Ranged Weapons?

[Sir NotABot]

I've always wanted this game to have throwing weapons, although I have no idea how historically accurate are they. I only have seen Franciscas (throwing axes), but that's it. So, anyone knows if throwing knives were ever used? Also, under what circumstances? Battlefield? And who used them?

The game's not meant to be historically accurate. I think we need only concern ourselves with what's realistic. I was really into knife throwing at one point. I never really got good at it, but I did a whole lot of research on it. There are people that are very, very good at throwing knives and axes. I'd be surprised if throwing knives, axes, darts, and maybe even shuriken weren't included in this game.

Edit: This is another cool opportunity to introduce learned personal user skill into the game. The hardest part of throwing knives and axes is getting them to hit point first. Typically you're throwing from such short distances that left/right/vertical aiming isn't too tough. When you're learning to throw, you typically keep your wrist locked and use an overhand or underhand motion with your whole arm. This keeps the rate of rotation consistent. The further you are from the target, the more rotations there are going to be. So let's say the knife (for example) rotates so it's point-first every 2 feet. I think it's a no-brainer to expect to do more damage if it hits point first. So we'll all need to learn when to throw based on distance and speed of the approaching enemy in order to maximize damage. We'll want the knife to hit the target at 2 feet, 4 feet, 6 feet, etc. And now I'm really excited about the prospect of throwing weapons. Thanks a lot.

 

[Guy]

A crossbow could be a one and done, dropped like the torch on single player without "companion tanks" or whatever. Currently a bow would be able to get off maybe two shots before being useless by the enemy closing without great skill in quick aim and release.

There currently isn't enough room on the zoom out, or a third person view behind the PC, or any camera option currently that would make full range of a "short" (or compound/recurve, one that would more practical in the dungeon setting than a "long") bow, let alone time to cock and fire more than one shot with a crossbow or the yardage king and historical masturbatory queen preference of the English Longbow.

Right now throwing weapons or a one and done shooter would be most practical to implement. Shorter range weapons are currently the only kind that would be able to reach their fullest potential without tweaking the current viewing system.

Final thought. The rule of 21. The rule of 21 is a defensive zone where if a person with a knife (or other non shooting weapon within reason) breaches, it is assumed that a man cannot, on average, properly aim and shoot before the melee opponent can close. Thus, you are assuming that anyone right at the point of 21 feet is an immediate danger, and should be shot right there. I imagine that in a single player scenario, crossbows and bows, or rudimentary firearms, would be in much the same position.

And for throwing at a charging character, I would even think that other than a throwing knife weighted to go blade first and not to rely on revolution snap timed for distance traveled (think throwing axe, has to rotate in a way to snap the head into the target to be most effective), throwing weapons would be severely disadvantaged by trying to strike a close moving or charging character. A rock might even be a better option than a hand axe inside a certain range.

 

[Vold]

I should have said as close as possible to european medieval era... I don't expect it to have shurikens or kunais for example.
Throwing axes is the only weapon I know about that era, but I want to know if there are others, who used them and under what conditions.

 

[Sir NotABot]

Final thought. The rule of 21. The rule of 21 is a defensive zone where if a person with a knife (or other non shooting weapon within reason) breaches, it is assumed that a man cannot, on average, properly aim and shoot before the melee opponent can close. Thus, you are assuming that anyone right at the point of 21 feet is an immediate danger, and should be shot right there. I imagine that in a single player scenario, crossbows and bows, or rudimentary firearms, would be in much the same position.

I don't think this applies here. The 21-foot rule is based on time to recognize a threat, draw a gun, aim, and fire.

Based on this article :

Originating from research by Salt Lake City trainer Dennis Tueller and popularized by the Street Survival Seminar and the seminal instructional video "Surviving Edged Weapons," the "rule" states that in the time it takes the average officer to recognize a threat, draw his sidearm and fire 2 rounds at center mass, an average subject charging at the officer with a knife or other cutting or stabbing weapon can cover a distance of 21 feet.

The implication, therefore, is that when dealing with an edged-weapon wielder at anything less than 21 feet an officer had better have his gun out and ready to shoot before the offender starts rushing him or else he risks being set upon and injured or killed before he can draw his sidearm and effectively defeat the attack.

In the game, you're going to have your ranged weapon in hand and ready to go. And so far, everything is an enemy that most likely needs killing. I agree that crossbows are one and done, but I could see bows getting off more.

 

[Sir NotABot]

And for throwing at a charging character, I would even think that other than a throwing knife weighted to go blade first and not to rely on revolution snap timed for distance traveled (think throwing axe, has to rotate in a way to snap the head into the target to be most effective), throwing weapons would be severely disadvantaged by trying to strike a close moving or charging character.

Sorry, I made a huge edit regarding this after you posted. I think accounting for the revolution would be a great user skill test.

 

[Sir NotABot]

I should have said as close as possible to european medieval era... I don't expect it to have shurikens or kunais for example.
Throwing axes is the only weapon I know about that era, but I want to know if there are others, who used them and under what conditions.

http://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians

 

[Vold]

http://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians

Actually, I was hoping for an answer of some of those who know a lot of medieval weapons on this forums, like @J.G. Elmslie, @Elric von Rabenfels . I just didn't want to tag them.

I've been reading some stuff in this website http://www.medievalwarfare.info ; which indicates that Javelins and Franciscas were like the main throwing weapons. More information would be largly appreciated.

Also, while looking a that webside I couldn't resist to look at the torture methods of that era... It has a lot of information... too much...

 

[Guy]

Try this exercise. Stand 7 yards from a wall in a "ready to whup ass" state. Lunge forward into the wall (or through the door, or over the line, or whatever your point of reference is, I'm just saying wall because it represents a vertical object of which to focus on) and strike it with a feather duster, lets say (you don't want to fuck up your wife's wall fer crying out loud). How long did that take, and if you were focusing on a bowman who happens to miss his first attempt (or at least failed to incapacitate you), does he have time for a second shot? Doubtful without pointy ears, if you know what I mean. The hypothetical bowman would most likely need to parry with his bow or try to strike with a hand held arrow before being able to draw and loose again.

 

[Sir NotABot]

Try this exercise. Stand 7 yards from a wall in a "ready to whup ass" state. Lunge forward into the wall (or through the door, or over the line, or whatever your point of reference is, I'm just saying wall because it represents a vertical object of which to focus on) and strike it with a feather duster, lets say (you don't want to fuck up your wife's wall fer crying out loud). How long did that take, and if you were focusing on a bowman who happens to miss his first attempt (or at least failed to incapacitate you), does he have time for a second shot? Doubtful without pointy ears, if you know what I mean. The hypothetical bowman would most likely need to parry with his bow or try to strike with a hand held arrow before being able to draw and loose again.

True. Worst case scenario, you're only getting one shot off. Optimally, you're back-pedalling and you hit your target to slow it down the first time. Also, you may be shooting a non aggressive zombie in the back. So, 1-3 shots.

 

[Guy]

In the back is not an issue. You should have all the time in the world and also be much further away than 21 feet, ish. 2-3, or more, would certainly be in the realm of possibility I would think at longer distances. Distance=time in this case.

At a closer range, against an opponent focused on you, the best case is you get off one mostly aimed shot. If you fail to stop the threat immediately, your opponent will pwn you. Even if you manage to sever an artery, that close you are most likely done. Any lesser wound and it is BOHICA time. A motivated opponent will still be a threat until they bleed out.

Remember, turn and run they cut you down. They are already at speed and you aren't. Backpedaling is just as bad, and you had better hope the way behind is clear and your bad guy is the equivalent of a sloth. Get a friend and a cheapie toy bow from Walmart or where ever, blunt the tip and tie a bean bag or equivalent safety point and give it a go. Even though it will be a tad more awkward and you will be slower to nock and fire than a skilled bowman, I think you will get the idea.

A crossbow held in a position to make ready quickly would be your best bet, but you may want to check around corners with a melee weapon at hand instead.

Aanyway, my whole point is that without a "fix" to a camera system that may not need it, longer ranged weapons cannot be used to their fullest potential because to scale, max effective range is off the map. So the shorter range throwing weapons would make more sense to implement first and go from there.

 

[Vold]

This has been discussed in the insiders forum if I remember well. The max distance from the character to the target (camera zoomed out), will be 15-18 meters (50 - 60 feet). So, you should be able to fire 1 or 2 arrows against a guy running towards you before than getting your head chopped off your neck.
I think it will be used more as support or hidden spots as surprise attack, but not in close combat quarters. For that they've mentioned a way to switch "rapidly" from ranged to melee weapons.

 

[Guy]

Ah. Yeah, so, thrown weapons would be at max range or approaching max range, anything else would be wasted power, so a quicker firing lighter pull smaller bow would be fine but a slower shooting max range bow would be about useless other than punching heavy armor.

 

[Vold]

But, if you are on a higher ground (on a wall for instance), the distance may increase considerably (7:00):

Also, maybe they have in mind something to allow long distance shooting. But it has not been confirmed afaik.
As for close quarters combat, I doubt that archery will be a good option; and we will have to swap to melee when the enemy is within 15 - 20 feet if we want to survive. An arrow does not kill immediatelly or stop a guy full of adrenaline unless it hits a vital spot that incapacitates it, imo.

 

[Guy]

But, if you are on a higher ground (on a wall for instance), the distance may increase considerably (7:00):

Also, maybe they have in mind something to allow long distance shooting. But it has not been confirmed afaik.

It might, depending on how it is set up, but you may still only be talking about 50 meters as opposed to 15-20. I am very curious if they do have a mechanic in mind for longer ranges.

 

[puksus]

Sir NotABot, sorry then, i misunderstood you.

 

[J.G. Elmslie]

Actually, I was hoping for an answer of some of those who know a lot of medieval weapons on this forums

generally speaking, thrown weapons fell out of use in the 10-12th centuries of so - you have the francisca and hulbrat, and a small number of other throwing axes earlier, and javelins were used to a degree, but really, by the end of the crusades, you're looking at a situation where armour is so effective that human muscle power for a thrown object simply isnt enough. By the time you reach the golden age of plate, a thrown object is pretty much like throwing a stone at a main battle tank. Throwing knives have virtually no reference whatsoever in historical texts, as they're pretty much useless - you're far better off keeping it in hand, and grappling, to stick it in the poor bugger's eye. (or balls)

it could be argued that oriental arms like shuriken were fundamentally the same - they arent a weapon of war, but one used to distract and make an opponent flinch, to facilitate escape or diversion.

the weapon people forget about, for ranged stuff, is the sling - which was more than capable of causing lethal damage to anyone except the fully armoured, and continued in warfare into the 13th century at least.

(and makes me think of some of the wonderful cast lead sling bullets from the greeks... carved with things like "take that!" on them.