Swing Quadrant Input Improvements - Current vs New

[Jest]

Assuming players are using a 16:10/16:9 widescreen window, with the character's feet pointed 12 o'clock to the top of the screen, the color-coded sectors show the areas on screen you can click to get the corresponding swing.

Current:

Proposed:

Sectors accounting for thrusts:

Explaining to a beginner, "Click to the side of your character to swing from that side. Click in front of your character to perform an overhead. Click further in front to perform a thrust."

Hi. Popping in to say that I love your game. Haven't played anything this original and refreshing since the first Mount & Blade alpha. The underlying combat system is amazing, something I can see players getting into for years. So far I've been completing Expert with every weapon, next, naked runs!

That said, the controls are the number one most common complaint, and the greatest barrier of entry for players trying to get into the game. I think this could be solved with a few tweaks.


Issues with the current input system:

• Clicking on your character's shoulder while it's spinning and wobbling around is imprecise. Generating power for swings requires a lot of character rotation, especially if you're using blunt weapons like the maul, to smash through defenses and cause knockdowns. You have to click on the correct quadrant to get the swing you want, at the same time this rotates the character. This causes players to fight with the controls.

• Swing input guesswork. Lack of instant feedback for the swing you have queued. Players are never 100% sure what swing they have queued, until they see the arms physically chamber into the correct position. This is especially bad when you're using heavier weapons, as you're frequently rotating/caught in the momentum of swings.

• Feinting, or anything revolving rapid inputs is especially clunky and imprecise. Because double-clicking causes overheads, it's physically impossible to pull off skilled, instant reactions and adjustements to your opponent's movements. All these situations conflict with each other: feinting left->right swings multiple times, or switching your swing direction to react to your opponent's weapon/arm position, or doing multiple overhead feints, or trying to keep a swing chambered.

• Lack of a unified, intuitive control scheme. Double-clicking for overheads naturally adds input delay, at the same time the double-clicking window to register an overhead is overly long. Left->right swing inputs have roughly 1/4th the input area of right->left swings, causing a lot of unnecessary/accidental rotation.

Input improvement suggestions:

• Equally divide the quadrants for left->right and right->left swings. Add a quadrant for overheads.

• Add an option to disable double-clicking for overheads, or adjust the input window.

• Let players bind keys/buttons to individual swings if they so desire.

-No confusion or conflicting inputs when feinting or rapidly adjusting swing directions. Instant swing response for overheads, while removing the directional conflicts caused by a long double-click input window.

-Less drunken spinning since the swing quadrants are divided equally (you don't have to turn as much to register a left->right swing, especially when your character is already rotating).

-More intuitive since there aren't multiple systems for input (double-clicking and quadrants), and swing inputs are weighed equally. Less guesswork as to what swing you have queued.

 

[Anthony Obilor]

I'm interested to see how this topic will evolve. I was feeling out the controls today, stepping and dashing in each individual direction, seeing where the sweet spots are for L>R swings and I did feel that the quadrant wud be better abit larger. I also like the idea of a middle quadrant, but possibly for thrusts where you actually aim at the enemy part you are trying to stab, I wouldn't want to have to keep doing overheads whenever my mouse is on the enemies who will be in the middle quadrant. I am really interested to see how BM implement new maneuvers.

Concerning the elastic looking Movements, I think when maroc reworks the footwork, especially when they have an animator, it will help alot. I noticed the legs tend to be abit too close and do not position themselves to balance your top half. I feel the top half should be more rigid to swaying as muscles tend to work towards keeping the body balanced. From what I have read of dev posts, the top half and the legs work independent of one another but using procedural animation the legs try to position themselves to support the body. I think possibly increasing the strength of the legs(it's carry weight) may be a viable option, but not knowing the inner workings of the system I am just basing it on concepts.

Sidestepping or back stepping causes the characters top half to sway in that direction as if the legs are struggling to balance the weight and this should not be the case. Maybe a rebalanced of the body weight and/or strengthening of legs balance. Legs need some wider stances/footwork for better balance especially after dashing and obviously if you were balanced before the dash.

 

[Cpt Dave]

So that's why I've been having problems attacking from the left.

 

[Murf]

Clicking on your character's shoulder while it's spinning and wobbling around is imprecise.

Why are ya clicking on your characters shoulder? Not sure what you are trying to accomplish with that.

 

[Jest]

Why are ya clicking on your characters shoulder? Not sure what you are trying to accomplish with that.

It's just easier to use the game's terminology for "clicking on the left quadrant"

I was feeling out the controls today, stepping and dashing in each individual direction, seeing where the sweet spots are for L>R swings and I did feel that the quadrant wud be better abit larger. I also like the idea of a middle quadrant, but possibly for thrusts where you actually aim at the enemy part you are trying to stab, I wouldn't want to have to keep doing overheads whenever my mouse is on the enemies who will be in the middle quadrant. I am really interested to see how BM implement new maneuvers.

Perhaps make a rear quadrant for stabs when they're implemented. Flick the mouse behind your character, click, then bring it back, as with the current left swings. Sort of like an IRL stab motion.

Ideally, the swing input system should be intuitive, precise, and easily explained to new players. "Click on the left side of the character to swing from the left, click in front to do overheads, click on the right side to swing from the right."

TBH anything that doesn't involve double-clicking would be a huge improvement, since the game cannot keep up with a player's reaction/speed. Say you want to quickly swap swings to react to an opponent's exact weapon position, or if you try to mimic the speed of the final expert boss' feints and attacks, it's just not possible because everything registers as an overhead.

 

[-Tim-]

This is an interesting idea, I like it. Adding a quadrant for overheads would be consistent with the control scheme, while freeing up double-clicking for a different move/function. I imagine it can also be quite intuitive, but this would need some testing.

 

[Buggeroo]

Very interesting suggestion. Personally I have always hated double-clicking/tapping, which is also why I hardly ever used dashes before they changed the controls.
I have also many times accidentally changed attack to an overhead when attempting to feint.. not sure how it would work, dividing the controls into too many sections though, it would require you to keep a lot more accurate track of your characters facing and the position of the cursor.

 

[Tony]

Adding a third quadrant to the attack scheme would make it that much more confusing to play. If people think remembering two quadrants is already difficult then adding a third one would not make it any easier. Also, a problem with adding a quadrant that is directly in front of your character would mean that attack is what you'd be doing 90% of the time since usually a player wants to keep their cursor in front of their character to parry incoming blows until they are ready to strike. A player also keeps the cursor in front of their character most of the time since it controls the direction you're facing and your movement inputs (WASD keys).

I really dislike the idea of adding more quadrants since two is already difficult enough for most people to keep track of while constantly moving during a fight. With only two quadrants I don't really even have to pay attention to the cursor since I can just "feel" what to do due to muscle memory which allows me to perform the proper mouse action without thinking (either flicking the cursor to the left or right really quickly to perform what swing I want without rotating my character).

Just to note: your first diagram is incorrect. The left-to-right swing only has to be to the left of your character's left shoulder, this means the quadrant does not arc diagonally up like you've shown in the diagram. The line you have going diagonally up should instead be replaced with a straight line that is aligned with the character's left shoulder. The two quadrants are closer to 45% to perform a left-to-right swing and 55% for a right-to-left swing.

 

[Anthony Obilor]

In reply to @Tony if the quadrant is divided down the screen then that is better, but also because the character almost always rotates if you don't do it fast enough, it becomes more a matter of speed and you cannot plan that split second backhand by having the cursor already on the left side of the screen. I've thought about this and cannot think of a good workaround without losing the ability to rotate accurately and responsive.

A back quadrant is definitely not a viable option as I can see much frustrations with the character turning around. I think what we will be seeing is something more along the lines of modifier keys that change what lmb does e.g. V+Lmb = thrust.

I didn't think the middle quadrant would work very well because as I said, your enemy will usually fall into this quadrant, but I would like to see if this discussion can evolve the controls.

 

[Hedgehog-of-Fog]

Interesting idea.
I've been played Exanima about 24 hours, but only one time I made instantly clear overhead blow - when enemy lying on the ground (great sword flew right into her unarmored head and finished her in one struck).
Other overheads were too slow to show their effectiveness (ok-ok, I didn't show sufficient skill ).

So, if overheads require accuracy, why not set aside for them a separate quadrant and leave double click for thrusts?

 

[Tony]

So, if overheads require accuracy, why not set aside for them a separate quadrant and leave double click for thrusts?

Because two quadrants is intuitive and makes sense (left to perform a strike from the left and right to perform a strike from the right). There are no other quadrants that would work well since the mouse cursor also controls the direction you're facing. You can't use a quadrant in front of your character without restricting almost all attacks to that particular attack since 90% of the time your cursor is in front of you. Also, thrusts will require precise aiming too, even more so than overhand strikes. Imagine trying to thrust with a spear for example.

 

[Hedgehog-of-Fog]

Because two quadrants is intuitive and makes sense (left to perform a strike from the left and right to perform a strike from the right). You can't use a quadrant in front of your character without restricting almost all attacks to that particular attack since 90% of the time your cursor is in front of you.

It is also intuitive to make a turn when you strike with a left/right swing.
Firstly you turn when make a swing, then you turn when make a hit.
With this arrangement of quadrants the controls will be very complicated, but will be closer to intuitive.
Also, thrusts are very "intuitive" on double click.

Also, thrusts will require precise aiming too, even more so than overhand strikes. Imagine trying to thrust with a spear for example.

When you strike overhand (or make a thrust) you have to look directly into the face of the enemy. When you make a swing - you don't need to do that.

 

[tiny lampe]

Also, thrusts are very "intuitive" on double click.

How exactly is double clicking to make a thrust intuitive?

Doing a left to right motion with your crosshair do perform a left to right swing is intuitive. Clicking twice to make a backwards onwards motion is not. An intuitive way to perform thrusts would be to move the crosshair towards the character and then away from him, but as discussed earlier this may not be viable because of the risk of making the character expose his back.

 

[Hedgehog-of-Fog]

How exactly is double clicking to make a thrust intuitive?

Maybe I worked too long in Windows OS with the setting for the opening folders by double-clicking - that's why (yeah, that's weird).
BTW swings and overhand strikes are one type of hits, thrusts are quite different. Why they need to be perfomed by the same methods (motions of the crosshair)?

 

[-Tim-]

Adding a third quadrant to the attack scheme would make it that much more confusing to play. If people think remembering two quadrants is already difficult then adding a third one would not make it any easier.

I don't think people find remembering the quadrants a problem. I've seen very few posts complaining about that. I assume this is because using quadrants is intuitive, which is the reason they're already used in this game.

Also, a problem with adding a quadrant that is directly in front of your character would mean that attack is what you'd be doing 90% of the time since usually a player wants to keep their cursor in front of their character to parry incoming blows until they are ready to strike. A player also keeps the cursor in front of their character most of the time since it controls the direction you're facing and your movement inputs (WASD keys).

This is already the case with the current system, which is why most inexperienced players use RtL swings all the time. This makes new players extremely ineffective with low end weapons at the start of Exanima. With the new system they'd just be doing more overheads than RtL swings. I'm not sure if that is desirable, though, but it might actually be.

I really dislike the idea of adding more quadrants since two is already difficult enough for most people to keep track of while constantly moving during a fight. With only two quadrants I don't really even have to pay attention to the cursor since I can just "feel" what to do due to muscle memory which allows me to perform the proper mouse action without thinking (either flicking the cursor to the left or right really quickly to perform what swing I want without rotating my character).

You may have a point here, but I don't think the proposed added quadrant would be as confusing as you make it sound.

Just to note: your first diagram is incorrect. The left-to-right swing only has to be to the left of your character's left shoulder, this means the quadrant does not arc diagonally up like you've shown in the diagram. The line you have going diagonally up should instead be replaced with a straight line that is aligned with the character's left shoulder. The two quadrants are closer to 45% to perform a left-to-right swing and 55% for a right-to-left swing.

This is true.

 

[Pilluminati]

This system would annoy the hell out of me. I want to be able to initiate RL attacks from the middle where you've put the overhead quadrant because it allows for quick slices. Not to mention spinning moves would be more tedious to perform as you'd have to be even more careful of your mouse position and characters facing. I'm not convinced at all. The complaints have been about the camera, not about overheads (haven't seen a single one in fact).

 

[Cpt Dave]

We don't really need an overhead quadrant, but I would really prefer if right and left was split down the middle, or at least a lot closer to the middle. It's annoying when you try to hit from the left and your cursor is clearly on your left, but you just didn't move it far enough. Most of the time I don't even bother trying to strike from the left because I have no idea what is going to happen.

The cursor could be used to indicate which side you will strike from if you attack in that instant. The different sections of the cursor would light up showing the direction. Of course this would be completely optional. And if later you decide to make optional sections for overhead/thrust attacks the cursor can just be split into more sections as well. Actually, it's not that hard to imagine a system where you can just customize all this for yourself with some sliders.

 

[Jest]

Just to note: your first diagram is incorrect. The left-to-right swing only has to be to the left of your character's left shoulder, this means the quadrant does not arc diagonally up like you've shown in the diagram. The line you have going diagonally up should instead be replaced with a straight line that is aligned with the character's left shoulder. The two quadrants are closer to 45% to perform a left-to-right swing and 55% for a right-to-left swing.

The diagram's accurate. Here's a video demonstrating the sweet spots.

The quadrants are aligned with where your feet are pointing, rather than the shoulder. So if you ever get into situations where your character is wobbling or rotating rapidly, just pay attention to the direction of the feet for consistent directional inputs.

With only two quadrants I don't really even have to pay attention to the cursor since I can just "feel" what to do due to muscle memory which allows me to perform the proper mouse action without thinking (either flicking the cursor to the left or right really quickly to perform what swing I want without rotating my character).

That's my experience as well. I flick the mouse left or right, then bring it back to make sure I get the swing I want (which also adds rotation depending on how fast/powerful I want the swing to be). I never simply click directly in front of my character, so the middle quadrant shown in the diagram is mostly unused input real estate for me. I think the overhead quadrant should be iterated so it isn't overly forgiving/punishing for sure. With stabs and overheads, which are linear attacks, you're mostly trying to line up an accurate attack, instead of queueing it while spinning/rotating around for power, so "clicking directly in front of the character for overheads" doesn't conflict with anything I normally do.

This is an interesting idea, I like it. Adding a quadrant for overheads would be consistent with the control scheme, while freeing up double-clicking for a different move/function. I imagine it can also be quite intuitive, but this would need some testing.

Double click inputs are the devil They're extremely limiting and clumsy.

At the very minimum, it adds 2 frames of input delay (out of 60fps). Fighting game players use plinks and double-taps on arcade buttons to achieve that input speed, but it's not really possible with one finger and a mouse.

The input window to register a double-click is something like ~250ms. That's a long time for martial artists or experienced melee game players, since it physically limits your reactions and adjustments. I can make four directional changes/adjustments in the input window for an overhead. The game literally cannot keep up with what I want to do, because everything results in an overhead. Throwing a quick feint from one direction into a strike from another is impossible. Keeping a strike chambered is impossible. You can't freely flow between strikes like you'd be able to IRL, or even in games like Mount & Blade or Jedi Outcast. When you can't immediately react or adjust to what the opponent's doing, it makes It makes the game feel laggy, kind of like trying to playing online over a 56k.

 

[Jest]

How exactly is double clicking to make a thrust intuitive?

Doing a left to right motion with your crosshair do perform a left to right swing is intuitive. Clicking twice to make a backwards onwards motion is not. An intuitive way to perform thrusts would be to move the crosshair towards the character and then away from him, but as discussed earlier this may not be viable because of the risk of making the character expose his back.

I updated the diagram to account for thrusts.

Explaining to a beginner:
"Click to the side of your character to swing from that side. Click in front of your character to perform an overhead. Click further in front to perform a thrust."

The thrust/overhead sectors might have to be swapped, depending on which has more reach.

 

[Murf]

Was doing the LtR in stream tonight because your diagram got me thinking, your initial diagram is incorrect, you do not need to go so far to the left to initiate a LtR. If you are doing the action slow perhaps you do, but if you do it quick you can perform a LtR by only putting the mouse at approx 350° maybe even 355°