Rob
Moderator
You are not to blame. For some reason, this thread has become "all to do with hand-to-hand combat, martial arts, European or otherwise, modern and historical".
Thoughts and Ideas General
- Thread starter PipesOfMadness
- Start date
Psychomorph
Insider
Martial art, as in kicking, punching, grabbing, throwing? If that's what you're referring to, than no army, not the Chinese, nor the Japanese (Samurai) used that in war. They all had their swords, armour, horses and what not. Hand to hand was always an individual last resort option, when you lose all your arms. Muay Thai was developed from the Siamese military sword techniques, as an option for the soldier to defend himself unarmed. I don't think most foot soldier had an extended martial art training, but the higher ranked probably had, as it is the case with the Samurai vs. regular Japanese foot soldier.
Any warrior, must know to fight unarmed. I think wrestling is a form of western hand to hand combat, which is comparable to Japanese jiu-jutsu, which was largely practiced by Samurai, also which has it's roots in Chinese hand to hand combat.
I guess a lot of hand to hand combat techniques were developed by military, but they developed into "art" outside the military environment. If a Chinese officer had to use Kung Fu, because his sword was taken off him, it would not look like in a Jet Li film, he'd fight faster, dirtier and less elegant, basically, you would not recognize whether it's Kung Fu or some Kickboxing thing, because reality is not the beautiful things you see in films.
I guess there's a lot of shades of grey, if you think about Martial Art, you imagine some Asian priest in a robe doing awesome moves and you cannot link it to European ways of fighting, but you cannot link it to Asian martial art practically used in Asian military also.
Outside the military, martial art never developed in the west the way it did in Asia, due to various reasons, like Rob described before. Also a lot of "knowledge" comes from films, or did you know that the oldest form of martial art is Kalaripayattu, which comes from India and is assumed to have influenced the Chinese martial arts early on, which on the other hand influenced the martial art in whole Asia and the world? Who would think about Indians doing Kung Fu?
graphicsOMG
Member
First person, experiencing realistic first person combat with swords is something I've always wanted to do. I'd also really like to see large scale sieges and battles. Horses, catapults, the whole experience.
Rob
Moderator
I haven't seen anything to do with catapults mentioned so far - sounds great! I bet that wouldn't be too hard for Bare Mettle to implement and get right. More generally, any medieval siege weapons such as the ballista and trebuchet (and other dynamic "objects"... real traps... drawbridges... portcullises that can impale people...).
+1 for catapults and the like!!!
MrIdontKnow
Insider
Madoc did mention there might be destructible walls on a small scale, so something hard and fast must have to hit it to create that effect
Rob
Moderator
Everything will be based on physics, so I can imagine anything will be possible! Position a couple of boxes, jump up, and get a near-by player to hit the launch switch!!! There no reason why such mechanics shouldn't be possible!!!
Rob
Moderator
We could experiment and see whether squishy things break hard thingsMadoc did mention there might be destructible walls on a small scale, so something hard and fast must have to hit it to create that effect
MrIdontKnow
Insider
Rob
Moderator
Well that all depends on whether the French steal our castle, doesn't it!!!!
The Hedge Knight
Member
Tony
Insider
Are you sure about this statement? Samurai and Vikings were both elite soldiers, not common infantry. And both Vikings and Samurai extensively practiced hand to hand combat techniques that would be useful in warfare. These included kicks, throws, leg sweeps and other techniques designed to imbalance your opponent in order to deliver a lethal blow from a weapon.
If you were to watch Vikings in a Glima match it would resemble a modern day Judo match (the goal is to get your opponent on his back by either throwing, tripping or using other maneuvers). Vikings were practicing Glima over 1000 years before Judo was created. The reason Vikings wanted to learn techniques to get an opponent on their back was that it made it easy to deliver a lethal blow from a weapon.
I find it hard to believe that both Samurai and Vikings would spend a great deal of time practicing and perfecting battlefield oriented martial arts that they'd never use in battle. Not to mention a simple kick can be used by any type of soldier, no matter if they've trained or not. This, I would imagine, would be quite handy in a sword fight if both of your hands were occupied wielding a shield and sword. A quick kick at an opportune time to imbalance your opponent is common sense.
Psychomorph
Insider
Martial arts are a great way for a warrior to maintain a needed physical condition, to keep balance during movement and precision of action. It's for the skill. You're right that kicking and grabbing may have been part of real combat, but I was referring to a real hand to hand combat situation. I mean if you're in a war and wear a mail, wield a shield and sword, the appliance of Glima is fairly limited. I didn't mean to say that it's just for sport and has no use in war, because the practice of hand to hand significantly increases the warriors strength, condition and skill set, but it's not going to be fully practically used in combat, because your sword is a much better tool than your punch, unless you get disarmed, than hand to hand skill may safe your life.
I agree, that two swords men can be equal, but the one winning over the other by kicking the opponent in the knee and make him fall or lose balance and become an easier target. Or something like that. A warrior uses his whole body to fight (incl. head), not just his weapons and close combat skills add a lot to it, but you're not going to see real hand to hand, unless at least one of them gets totally disarmed.
So I agree with you, but also agree with me.
Psychomorph
Insider
By the way. Just a thought. To be a, let's say, great sword fighter you don't need to study hand to hand combat, because if you practice the sword fighting good enough, you will be good at it and if you use it practically also, than you may be good at hand to hand also, compared to someone who never fought or practiced any form of combat, because things are intertwined and mutual in the real world. One skill may increase another as a side effect. And speaking of which, I think that is one core aspect of how skill will be managed in Sui Generis.
Tony
Insider
There is quite a bit of evidence showing that warriors would use any and every technique available as long as it was combat effective. The techniques they would practice would be ones they determined to be the most combat effective. There are medieval texts with diagrams illustrating techniques that were used, practiced and taught.
Most hand to hand martial arts that were battlefield oriented were designed to enhance weapon usage, not designed to be used entirely without a weapon. If you kick someone it's not to kill them with a kick, but rather to use the kick as a way to more effectively apply your weapon (create an opening, imbalance the opponent or to be a distraction).
And Glima was a HUGE advantage for the Vikings. The skills they learned from it (how to use leverage, balance, create openings, evade, etc) were very effective in combat. Glima was practiced in the upright position with straight posture so that the techniques learned could be duplicated with weapons in hand.
Most hand to hand martial arts that were battlefield oriented were designed to enhance weapon usage, not designed to be used entirely without a weapon. If you kick someone it's not to kill them with a kick, but rather to use the kick as a way to more effectively apply your weapon (create an opening, imbalance the opponent or to be a distraction).
And Glima was a HUGE advantage for the Vikings. The skills they learned from it (how to use leverage, balance, create openings, evade, etc) were very effective in combat. Glima was practiced in the upright position with straight posture so that the techniques learned could be duplicated with weapons in hand.
Tony
Insider
Yes, exactly the point I've been trying to make all along! Well saidBy the way. Just a thought. To be a, let's say, great sword fighter you don't need to study hand to hand combat, because if you practice the sword fighting good enough, you will be good at it and if you use it practically also, than you may be good at hand to hand also, compared to someone who never fought or practiced any form of combat, because things are intertwined and mutual in the real world. One skill may increase another as a side effect. And speaking of which, I think that is one core aspect of how skill will be managed in Sui Generis.
The hand to hand skills they practiced were designed to enhance and compliment their weapon usage, not replace it. The two worked well together and fed off of each other. A sword fighter may be very skilled if he only ever practices sword fighting... but the sword fighter who has a more diverse skill set (one who practices hand to hand and incorporates this learning into his swordsmanship) will almost always have an advantage.
Psychomorph
Insider
Well said, I got nothing to add.
The Hedge Knight
Member
I realize that they just attribute weapon use, what I am saying is the soldiers and warriors in Sui Generis most likely do not have any form like that. Maybe it was wide spread across the nobility and such, alright, but the regular western European nation did not have standing armies. They relied on peasant farmers raised into levies to do their dirty work, the majority of people would have no idea what martial arts are.
