Thoughts and Ideas General

[The Hedge Knight]

The one thing i'd love to see in this game more than anything, is a well thought out weaponless fighting option based on a real martial art. I know it's probably very difficult to do but i'm tired of choosing the open hand option in rpgs and playing exactly how i would with a sword. i think it would be better if there was more realism to the pen hand skill (ie holding up your fists to block a sword gets your hands chopped off) meaning that instead of blocking and parrying it's up to you the player to dodge the attack and time the counter. Also instead of the only attack being straight punches i'd like to see some variety depending on distance from the enemy and movement of the character. Asking for maybe a bit much but the possibility of an exiting weaponless combat system is immense given the physics engine.

Eh.

It is the middle ages in a low fantasy Europe, not Japan or China or any other part of Asia. The kung fu was very limited and rare in Europe and pretty much unheard of. Unarmed should be fleshed out, but you should not be some ninja or something.

 

[Cooper Holt]

I wouldn't expect everything from one game.
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/kostaszarifis/kung-fu-superstar-become-the-ultimate-martial-arts?ref=live

Why did you show me that link?

 

[Psychomorph]

Eh.

It is the middle ages in a low fantasy Europe, not Japan or China or any other part of Asia. The kung fu was very limited and rare in Europe and pretty much unheard of. Unarmed should be fleshed out, but you should not be some ninja or something.

There have been close combat styles in Europe. European martial systems, be it hand to hand or sword have never been very famous as the Asian counter parts, but that doesn't mean there weren't any. There probably have not been such things like Kung Fu or Shaolin in Europe, because these systems were developed by Monks with a strong spiritual side and the Chinese martial arts have inspired the neighboring countries. Europeans always were more "practical", although I remember there have been a Christian order that practiced a form of unarmed martial art as defense.

I mention these thing out of the top of my head, gotta research and find some sources for further discussions. So I think we should not dismiss the close combat aspect, even if we deal with a medieval setting, though I would not go so far as to speak about Kung Fu, but some more practical and minimalistic forms of hand to hand combat.

As for the game, not sure if it needs to be there, in my suggestion thread I voiced my opinion for non lethal attacks with usually lethal weapons, but I'd also like use a staff and sticks for less lethal combat (though these can be lethal, too).

 

[Kaizer0002]

Why did you show me that link?

It was directed at Granville. Anyone else is collateral damage. The point is the entire game is devoted to making realistic martial arts. Most games get by with Kirkesque fisty cuffs.

 

[The Hedge Knight]

There have been close combat styles in Europe. European martial systems, be it hand to hand or sword have never been very famous as the Asian counter parts, but that doesn't mean there weren't any. There probably have not been such things like Kung Fu or Shaolin in Europe, because these systems were developed by Monks with a strong spiritual side and the Chinese martial arts have inspired the neighboring countries. Europeans always were more "practical", although I remember there have been a Christian order that practiced a form of unarmed martial art as defense.

Yeah I know about the European martial artist orders, but there is a reason they were never widespread and fell far into obscurity. A very very small amount of people knew how to use it, like a fraction of a fraction of the European population. They were also never really used in combat.

 

[hredthel]

So are you agreeing with me or did you not direct that to me?

Yeah, I was. Must have forgot the quote part.

 

[Granville]

Most games get by with Kirkesque fisty cuffs.

This is exactly what i hate about unarmed fighting in most games not specifically designed for unarmed fighting, it0's dull and lacks realism, here you have a guy who can become a self taught master in sword play (something that usually takes years under instruction) but take that sword away and all he'll be able to do is throw the same punch over and over.
Also I'm not saying it has to be as complex as kung fu superstar, maybe just different attacks based on position like i said earlier, at long range kicks, at medium punches and knees, at short range elbow strikes, and maybe under certain circumstances throws.
I also realize this is a hard task and probably won't happen, but a boy can dream

I would not go so far as to speak about Kung Fu, but some more practical and minimalistic forms of hand to hand combat.

When i said based on a real martial art, i actually had Krav Maga in mind, which is a modern very practical martial art used by many of the worlds special forces.

 

[Rob]

There have been close combat styles in Europe. European martial systems, be it hand to hand or sword have never been very famous as the Asian counter parts, but that doesn't mean there weren't any. There probably have not been such things like Kung Fu or Shaolin in Europe, because these systems were developed by Monks with a strong spiritual side and the Chinese martial arts have inspired the neighboring countries. Europeans always were more "practical", although I remember there have been a Christian order that practiced a form of unarmed martial art as defense.

I mention these thing out of the top of my head, gotta research and find some sources for further discussions. So I think we should not dismiss the close combat aspect, even if we deal with a medieval setting, though I would not go so far as to speak about Kung Fu, but some more practical and minimalistic forms of hand to hand combat.

As for the game, not sure if it needs to be there, in my suggestion thread I voiced my opinion for non lethal attacks with usually lethal weapons, but I'd also like use a staff and sticks for less lethal combat (though these can be lethal, too).

Took the words from my mouth! It's a common misconception that martial arts are native only to the east.

 

[sunburnedpenguin]

I'm offended that someone would be critical of Kirk's fighting style! What's wrong with a double ax handle over and over? It's so difficult to avoid or block!

 

[Rob]

A very very small amount of people knew how to use it, like a fraction of a fraction of the European population. They were also never really used in combat.

I would beg to differ with these statements... have you got any reliable sources?

Yeah I know about the European martial artist orders, but there is a reason they were never widespread and fell far into obscurity.

Yes - the answer is technology.

European martial arts were widespread used through the Middle Ages (and perhaps even earlier, though there is no documentation). In the latter half of the Middle Ages, attempts were made to formalise such martial arts under one banner - this is considered the earliest widespread organised school of martial arts. Towards the end of the Middle Ages this was given the name the "Science Of Defence", which was later changed to the "Noble Science of Defence" and/or the "Noble Art of Defence". This encompassed both armed and unarmed close combat.

So why did it die out? Guns. Martial arts were useful in close combat, but became irrelevant when high-speed, reliable, projectile weaponry became commonplace. Advancements in technology made this more true as the centuries progressed.

So why haven't Eastern martial arts died out? Unlike the West, Eastern martial arts are historically closely connected to their spiritual paths, religion and philosophy. However, the West had less emotional attachment to their martial arts, and were happy to drop them when a more effective killing method became available. Also, in various points in history, parts of the East were repressed and kept from having as much access to guns, so martial arts were still relevant in practice.

I would say that Hollywood, and general ease of global communication and travel that has progressed over the last couple of centuries, has a lot of responsibility for the present-day widespread use/knowledge of Eastern martial arts. It's fashionable. And now, in today's "civilised society", we do not practice martial arts out of a necessity to protect our lives on a day-to-day basis. Rather, the reasons for present practice are generally social.

 

[The Hedge Knight]

Not to be rude, but do you have any sources?

 

[Rob]

Not to be rude, but do you have any sources?

Of course it's not rude to ask for sources! I would have little respect for you if you merely took my word for truth, rather than questioning it! Ultimately, you should gather information from various sources, and come to your own conclusions. Even then, you don't know the truth, you just have a certain amount of evidence. It's called objective science.

In fact, whenever I make statements, I invite others to contradict me if they have any conflicting views. This leads to interesting discussions and ultimately broader knowledge for all involved!!!

You are correct to question me, since I wrote my above comments without referencing external sources. Some of what I said originates from my previous knowledge, some was logical deduction. I can quickly provide a list of links for you to look at out of general interest, which support my claims, although I invite you to perform more thorough research if you would like to arrive at solid truths! If you find anything interesting please let us know, as I'll be interested, and I'm sure others on this forum will be interested too. Anyway, here's some links to get you started, which may or may not be deemed reliable sources:

http://www.thescienceofdefence.co.uk/english-martial-arts/
http://jwma.ejmas.com/articles/2003/jwmaart_docherty_0503.htm
http://www.newyorkcarver.com/martialarts.htm
http://jwma.ejmas.com/articles/2000/jwmaart_pfrenger_0300.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_martial_arts
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martial_arts
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearms_of_Japan
http://edinformatics.com/health_fitness/martial_arts.htm

Here are a few particularly relevant quotes from these sources:

"It might surprise you to know that martial arts schools existed in England as long ago as 1180AD"

"For fighting methods to be defined as a martial art system there have to be in place a definitive set of principles that govern the usage of weapons, be they natural weapons, that is to say fist, foot, etc. or artificial weapons [...]. English martial arts utilized a sophisticated set of principles by which the Science of Defence was governed. [...] English Maisters of Defence held that all actions, whether with or without weapons, were governed by the principles of the True Fight. These included such things as: True Times, False Times, The Four Grounds, The Four Governors, Wide Space, Narrow Space, etc. If you followed these principles when in combat you would be fighting the True Fight. If you fought without using the principles you would be fighting a False Fight which would seriously reduce your chances of surviving combat."

"The English Martial Arts are a cultural legacy that the many of the English people have let fall by the wayside. There are today, only a handful of practitioners that know the whole system of weapons and unarmed techniques of the original Noble Science of Defence. But those few, are keeping alive part of the English Culture, that allowed millions of English, in days gone by to defeat their enemies, and to put justice and civilisation where there was none.
Today, people everywhere are reaching out for the Martial Arts of other cultures, due I think to the many Kung Fu films that are in circulation, and maybe thinking that other aspects of these cultures are superior to their own. Forgetting that their own martial arts were often the skills that were used to subdue these other cultures. Now that statement may be politically inncorect, but the truth is the truth. England was in days of old well known for it's warriors, and fighting skills.
The English had at their disposal an extremely sophisticated martial arts system that was every bit as effective as those originating in the orient, and judging by the history of the English their martial skills were probably superior to those of these other cultures. The change came in the english martial arts, when ballistic warfare began to become more important than close quarter combat.
[...]
The English martial arts offer a wide variety of weapons , and unarmed techniques. The unarmed aspects of the noble science, offers a complete self defence system of unarmed combat. Now the majority of people still think of bare knuckle boxing to be a crude and brutal art, practiced by thugs. But in reality the bare fist fighting side of the art is a sophisticated system of combat, that can stand on it's own as a fighting art. The techniques include everything from closed fist techniques, open hand techniques, elbow , and arm techniques. There are also kicking, sweeping, and knee techniques. as well as headbutting. Grappling also plays a part in the Bare fist fighting of the Noble science, the famous cross buttock, and flying mare, are just two of the weapons from the grappling armoury, and there are many more aspects to the bare fist side of the art, many of which have to be seen."

"Very few western martial traditions have a verifiable unbroken line of practice from Medieval times. The same can be said for Asian martial traditions as well. The indigenous wrestling of Englands West Country and of the Cornish people themselves has a history that extends before Medieval times and possibly back into ancient times as well."

"The term martial art has become heavily associated with the fighting arts of eastern Asia, but was originally used in regard to the combat systems of Europe as early as the 1550s."

"Firearms were introduced to Japan in the 13th century, but saw little use. European firearms were introduced in 1543, and intense development followed, with strong local manufacture during the period of conflicts of the late 16th century. Japan then almost completely abandoned the further development and military use of firearms during a period of seclusion known as sakoku. The usage of firearms in Japan would start again after 1854 with the resumption of contacts with the West and the accumulation of conflicts from that period."

"Some martial arts are linked to spiritual or religious beliefs/philosophies such as Buddhism, Daoism or Shinto while others have their own spiritual/non-spiritual code of honour.Martial arts are commonly associated with East Asian cultures, but are by no means unique to Asia. Throughout Europe there was an extensive system of combat martial arts, collectively referred to as Historical European martial arts, that existed until modern times and are now being reconstructed by several organizations while Savate is a French kicking style developed by sailors and street fighters."

 

[The Hedge Knight]

Alright fair enough, like I said I knew there was such thing as European martial arts. However, I have yet to see them being in wide use in warfare.

 

[Rob]

Alright fair enough, like I said I knew there was such thing as European martial arts. However, I have yet to see them being in wide use in warfare.

For sure, they are not in wide use in modern warfare - they are irrelevant in the modern age. However, I would speculate that they are probably the most relevant, realistic martial art for a game attempting to model medieval times. Furthermore, I would not flippantly take European martial arts lightly, as it would seem that they were formidable in their heyday.

 

[The Hedge Knight]

Of course not in the modern age, I mean in medieval warfare. Having them being used by some people in schools across Europe and having them actually be used in combat are two different things.

 

[Rob]

Of course not in the modern age, I mean in medieval warfare. Having them being used by some people in schools across Europe and having them actually be used in combat are two different things.

I see your point.

My thought is that people in Medieval Europe would not have bothered to maintain/learn a martial art if it wasn't meant for practical use. Unlike in the modern age, people of that time would not have done such things for social reasons - as far as I'm aware, times were hard, and life was dangerous.

As far as I could see, the sources above indicate that the European martial arts were not only something that was shared amongst commoners, but also was taught as part of military objective.

For example, take the quote: "By Tudor times there were two main titles in use; the Art Militaire and its civilian relative the Science of Defence."

This implies that the military was routinely teaching a form of the European martial arts, referred to as the Art Militaire. For sure, the military would not have taught this if it was not considered the most effective form of combat in practical application.

 

[Rob]

One of the problems is that there is so little documentation of the Dark ages, because writings were uncommon, and times were apparently so tough...

Consequently, we are forced to speculate, based on the evidence placed before us.

 

[The Hedge Knight]

But the idea of European armies using martial arts in warfare contradict every single thing we know about medieval warfare.

 

[Rob]

Please expand!

I assume you mean: "surely they all had lances if on horses, and had swords and axes if on foot, and just massacred each other..."

Yes, sure. I'm sure that's not inaccurate. Especially if they were rich knights, as is the romantic imagery.

However, consider the art of Street Fighting. And, of course, I don't mean "fighting in the street", nor anything to do with Street Fighter. Rather, the martial art of Street Fighting, which comprises a variety of different martial arts which are employed depending on distance to the opponent. For example, in the context of modern martial arts, in rough order of distance from the opponent, this may include fighting with sticks, knives, kick boxing, boxing, hand/arm blocks, grappling, wrestling/judo. And this may include other martial arts also, depending on preferences of the individual.

Perhaps the closest to this concept, in official capacity, is Jeet Kune Do.

In practice, the martial artist would learn all techniques, then decide which he/she is most naturally attune to. Then, they would focus on those particular techniques, and master them. In a practical fight, the martial artist would attempt to force the opponent into the correct fighting distance for the martial art(s) that they have mastered.

For instance, the art of Krav Maga, which Granville earlier mentioned, is a special case of this. However, in the case of Krav Maga, one person decided what was best for them, and then enforced all others to learn the martial arts in the same proportions suitable to him. This was not an unwise move, given that it was to be blanket-taught in a military capacity. However, for an individual case, it is a less-customised version of the general technique I describe above.

From my understanding and interpretation, I believe that this is indeed included in the principles of medieval warfare. Whilst we might associate medieval warfare with lances and swords, due to romantic notions of that time period, I believe that individuals that were less fortunate/armoured would have attempted to force the opponent into a position that would have left them weak to the aggressor's prime strategy. For example, what use is a knight with a sword in a wrestling match? Providing the aggressive wrestler can get past the knight's sword, into the wrestling distance! My interpretation is that such considerations are encompassed within the "Science of Defense" of the Middle Ages.

 

[RichardTito]

In games of this genre there have always been martial art 'classes' that you can play, such as the monk in Diablo and Dungeons & Dragons. What would be an interesting twist would be to have medieval martial arts but I wonder how the physics and muscle contraction magic that Madoc wrote would work on such a concept? Hopefully nothing akin to the youtube video of physics based sumo wrestling someone posted.

In terms of other ideas, I do like the idea of pack animals as that is something that has been long missing from these games. I remember Dungeon Siege most fondly for it's pack animals, you had a mule that would get laden with more and more loot as the game went on, which led to his back having a crippling tower of boxes, bags and bundles. I'm not for animal abuse but this would be interesting to see implemented. Horses as far as I'm aware have never been done in these games either so that might be even more interesting. I personally have a distaste for fast travel so animals and trekking along 'limitless landmass' as Madoc put it, would be awesome.