What's taking so long?
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Hyomoto
Insider
No one understands what early access means. Mainly because no one knows A) how early of access we are talking, and B) whether or not the game will leave early access. I'm glad you have all the faith. It's great that you take the perspective of ten or five years is all the same. At some point though, it has to matter.
I'll never understand people like you. When Madoc put up the Kickstarter, he did so asking for money so that he and his team members could live in close proximity and work on the game full time. If he had gotten money from a publisher, they would expect accountability. Why is it you think we deserve none? Did the money run out? Are the team members still there? It's fine to say take your time, but we have no idea what the hell @Tony is talking about. We don't know who has been working how long on what. Madoc didn't even say "this year". The current timeline stretches out into infinity. You are optimistic so you assume weeks or months, but we're five years later and the demo isn't done. Did you forget the Exanima was meant to be a test bed for the actual game?
Madoc seems like a nice guy and he's honest. He's clearly passionate. Updates take time, I know that. It took me forty minutes to write this post and I'm not even working on a game in my spare time. Nonetheless, Sui Generis is vaporware. That's the game we backed. You have to look at this from a numbers perspective. The Exanima was meant to be a goody bag to help us wait. Well, technically we're still waiting on the goody bag to tide us over. So assuming the Exanima is done in the next two years, how long until the actual game is done? Five more?
I hate to rant but supporting the development team by insulting everyone else who isn't a 'true believer' is frankly rude and delusional. People believe Sui Generis is a dead project because the developer hasn't communicated with them for five months, and because it's taken them five years to get a partial demo that lacks most of the promised features out. And guess what, the most recent piece of communique, a valuable one at that, IS ON THE STEAM FORUMS AND NOT EVEN ON THE ****ING NEWS PAGE.
Maybe when we get that screenshot it'll be newsworthy?
NOTE: This isn't meant to be an attack on Bare Mettle so much as those of you who can't take off your rose colored sunglasses and even try to see what other people might. Like you @Tony, we don't know so telling everyone it's absurd to think the game is dead because you happen to know they are working super hard on it, well we don't. Madoc didn't even include a screenshot of the game being worked on, let alone the tools he built or even just his desk chair. You don't seem to understand just how little information comes out of Bare Mettle. I spent ~$180 on the Kickstarter, and one of the things that included was:
Insider forum
In this forum we will interact closely and openly with you to discuss features and development of the game. We will tell you what we're doing and how we're doing it, discuss ideas before they are final and listen to what you have to say.
Exclusive videos
You will be able to download frequent exclusive high quality HD videos showing and explaining new features and content as we develop them. This may include new powers, combat skills, creatures and characters, environments and more.
I paid for that. With money I gave Bare Mettle, I paid to be shown and told what they were working on. Think on it, would you? I eagerly await what kind of twisted logic/apology you can apply. Or better yet, explain to me how it's my fault. All I'm saying is we don't know, Bare Mettle went Hello Games on us, and it's far from unreasonable for people to fill in the gaps when the lack better information. Fair?
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Jimmini
Insider
How can someone seriously call Sui Generis vaporware? You don't seem to understand the reason why Exanima is being made. It's not just a "goody bag". It's a way for the developers to develop Sui Generis without spoiling it's content and to finalize the game mechanics and tools before making the actual massive amount of content. So basically, you're complaining that they don't create the content before the technical foundation is in place.
Sui Generis is right in front of you and you can play it anytime you want.
Nobody said anything about having to be a "true believer". It seems like you haven't visited the Steam forums yet, if you think that's the reason they aren't spoken highly of. Apart from that, I wouldn't call the word "kids" insulting. Accusing everyone that has faith in developers with a great track record of living up to their promises of seeing through rose-tinted glasses, isn't any better.
We can't know with absolute certainty that Bare Mettle isn't telling us lies about that they're actively working, true. But to suspect a conspiracy after not having seen an update, which is supposed to contain technology that hasn't been seen in any other game, within a few months is quite frankly silly. It seems like you don't know much about game development in general.
Somehow I doubt you'd be happy if they chose to release more information, since you don't seem to believe them anyway.
You say that you know that updates take time, but in the same paragraph you complain about things taking too long. You want to get the product you've backed, right? Well, Madoc (contrary to popular believe) is not a thaumaturge. He can't make all the completely novel and innovate things that make up the game suddenly appear by snapping his fingers. It's true that the game was supposed to be released already three years ago, but not everything always goes to plan and, more importantly, the initial plan was to release the game in a basic form which they intended to expand upon after release. That plan was scrapped as it wouldn't have proven popular by the community.
The reason they haven't communicated much in five months is probably because there isn't much to communicate to begin with. All that was written in that status update, was known months before already. They simply summarized and pinned it. They still work on the things they said they would.
I don't understand why you're reacting so irascible to the fact they put it in the forums instead of the news page. Ignoring the fact that they're separated by one simple click, they obviously don't think it's worthy an entry in the news section (neither do I). Like I said, it isn't news. Also, they seem to prefer to use the news section for announcements of actual game updates, not status updates.
But yeah, go ahead with accusing everyone of using twisted logic who doesn't share your opinion. And yes, it's unreasonable to fill gaps of information with whatever you like, without using any kind of evidence.
Sui Generis is right in front of you and you can play it anytime you want.
Nobody said anything about having to be a "true believer". It seems like you haven't visited the Steam forums yet, if you think that's the reason they aren't spoken highly of. Apart from that, I wouldn't call the word "kids" insulting. Accusing everyone that has faith in developers with a great track record of living up to their promises of seeing through rose-tinted glasses, isn't any better.
We can't know with absolute certainty that Bare Mettle isn't telling us lies about that they're actively working, true. But to suspect a conspiracy after not having seen an update, which is supposed to contain technology that hasn't been seen in any other game, within a few months is quite frankly silly. It seems like you don't know much about game development in general.
Somehow I doubt you'd be happy if they chose to release more information, since you don't seem to believe them anyway.
You say that you know that updates take time, but in the same paragraph you complain about things taking too long. You want to get the product you've backed, right? Well, Madoc (contrary to popular believe) is not a thaumaturge. He can't make all the completely novel and innovate things that make up the game suddenly appear by snapping his fingers. It's true that the game was supposed to be released already three years ago, but not everything always goes to plan and, more importantly, the initial plan was to release the game in a basic form which they intended to expand upon after release. That plan was scrapped as it wouldn't have proven popular by the community.
The reason they haven't communicated much in five months is probably because there isn't much to communicate to begin with. All that was written in that status update, was known months before already. They simply summarized and pinned it. They still work on the things they said they would.
I don't understand why you're reacting so irascible to the fact they put it in the forums instead of the news page. Ignoring the fact that they're separated by one simple click, they obviously don't think it's worthy an entry in the news section (neither do I). Like I said, it isn't news. Also, they seem to prefer to use the news section for announcements of actual game updates, not status updates.
But yeah, go ahead with accusing everyone of using twisted logic who doesn't share your opinion. And yes, it's unreasonable to fill gaps of information with whatever you like, without using any kind of evidence.
Tony
Insider
Exanima development is Sui Generis development. Everything created for Exanima is necessary for Sui Generis and is being designed to support Sui Generis; it's the foundation of SG. Obviously progress is still being made and anyone who checks the Updates & Release Notes subforum can see this for themselves; calling either game "vaporware" is silly when there's a playable build available that is constantly being updated. If you want to know why this latest update is taking a while well isn't that the purpose of Madoc's most recent written update which I posted in the OP?
Referring to Exanima as a "goody bag" or "demo" is definitely not fair or true either since it will be a full, complete game and a prelude to Sui Generis; doing so is overlooking the vast amount of work going into Exanima and it's misleading as well. Yes, Exanima will be more limited in scope than SG (limited to the underworld) but it still abides by the lore and contains the core features promised for SG (thaumaturgy, dialogue, physics based combat, skill system, fully interactable world, intelligent NPCs which make their own decisions, non-linear progression, dynamic events, thousands of game assets, etc.). Once these features/mechanics are finished then the core of SG is complete which means BM can focus more on world building and adding content to SG rather than creating the tools/mechanics necessary to do so (which is what they've spent a large portion of their time on so far) -- adding content is a quick process in comparison.
It's not seeing things through "rose colored sunglasses" but rather looking at the evidence available to make an informed deduction rather than wild, baseless assumptions (which are not helpful in any way). We know that BM have a history of releasing playable builds on a regular basis despite it sometimes taking a while between these updates. We know that it usually takes longer than originally estimated for BM to release things. We know that communication is sparse yet despite this progress is still being made (evidenced by new playable builds being released showing progress as well as Madoc's written updates like the one in the OP of this thread). We know that BM consists of a tiny team of less than 10 members yet they're innovating and doing things that haven't been done before which requires a considerable amount of trial-and-error before discovering viable solutions, thus making accurate release estimates nearly impossible. There's nothing twisted or delusional about using sound reasoning, logic and evidence to make educated deductions rather than false assumptions based upon only your fears (what you're afraid may happen).
The only "fair" criticism you mentioned above was that BM haven't been very good at communication and that the insider videos have been few and far between. You say you don't understand people like me because I support an indie developer like Bare Mettle who are working as hard as humanly possible to create something new and innovative, who are steadily making progress and delivering on their promises despite it taking longer than originally estimated... What's the alternative? Being negative just for the sake of it? Being angry and upset because it's taking longer than you hoped? Do any of those options help Bare Mettle, the community or yourself in any way?
Referring to Exanima as a "goody bag" or "demo" is definitely not fair or true either since it will be a full, complete game and a prelude to Sui Generis; doing so is overlooking the vast amount of work going into Exanima and it's misleading as well. Yes, Exanima will be more limited in scope than SG (limited to the underworld) but it still abides by the lore and contains the core features promised for SG (thaumaturgy, dialogue, physics based combat, skill system, fully interactable world, intelligent NPCs which make their own decisions, non-linear progression, dynamic events, thousands of game assets, etc.). Once these features/mechanics are finished then the core of SG is complete which means BM can focus more on world building and adding content to SG rather than creating the tools/mechanics necessary to do so (which is what they've spent a large portion of their time on so far) -- adding content is a quick process in comparison.
It's not seeing things through "rose colored sunglasses" but rather looking at the evidence available to make an informed deduction rather than wild, baseless assumptions (which are not helpful in any way). We know that BM have a history of releasing playable builds on a regular basis despite it sometimes taking a while between these updates. We know that it usually takes longer than originally estimated for BM to release things. We know that communication is sparse yet despite this progress is still being made (evidenced by new playable builds being released showing progress as well as Madoc's written updates like the one in the OP of this thread). We know that BM consists of a tiny team of less than 10 members yet they're innovating and doing things that haven't been done before which requires a considerable amount of trial-and-error before discovering viable solutions, thus making accurate release estimates nearly impossible. There's nothing twisted or delusional about using sound reasoning, logic and evidence to make educated deductions rather than false assumptions based upon only your fears (what you're afraid may happen).
The only "fair" criticism you mentioned above was that BM haven't been very good at communication and that the insider videos have been few and far between. You say you don't understand people like me because I support an indie developer like Bare Mettle who are working as hard as humanly possible to create something new and innovative, who are steadily making progress and delivering on their promises despite it taking longer than originally estimated... What's the alternative? Being negative just for the sake of it? Being angry and upset because it's taking longer than you hoped? Do any of those options help Bare Mettle, the community or yourself in any way?
Sgt. Floris
Member
So far from what I've seen is that there are two sides. One side is the fanboy side which is mostly trying to silence everyone who doesn't think that the devs are deities. Then the other side is the rational realistic side of (some) people who have put a lot money and faith into the devs, only to be totally neglected.
When this other side is asking where the updates are and what the hell is up with the development of the products they poured their money and faith in, they only get belittled and told to be thankful for what little they already have.
Doesn't anyone see how messed up this whole situation is? Stop being naive and see BareMettle for what they truly are: just another game company trying to make a buck out of a funded Kickstarter and an Early Access game. I have said this before but BareMettle has no real incentive to deliver anymore because they already have cashed in on the games. They got money for an idea, a concept and what they delivered in 5 years is laughable.
Sure, @Tony and some other guys will probably try to silence me and say that I am somehow wrong. If you look at the past however you will notice that I speak truth and facts cannot be denied.
When this other side is asking where the updates are and what the hell is up with the development of the products they poured their money and faith in, they only get belittled and told to be thankful for what little they already have.
Doesn't anyone see how messed up this whole situation is? Stop being naive and see BareMettle for what they truly are: just another game company trying to make a buck out of a funded Kickstarter and an Early Access game. I have said this before but BareMettle has no real incentive to deliver anymore because they already have cashed in on the games. They got money for an idea, a concept and what they delivered in 5 years is laughable.
Sure, @Tony and some other guys will probably try to silence me and say that I am somehow wrong. If you look at the past however you will notice that I speak truth and facts cannot be denied.
Tony
Insider
Again, are you stating facts or making baseless assumptions/accusations? What money have they cashed in on? How long do you think £160,055 lasts 7 people for 5 years plus expenses such as keeping the website up, the CDN to host the game files, etc. Do the math and you'll discover they haven't made a single cent in profits yet; there's simply nothing to run away with or cash-in on. If they were to abandon the game now they'd be throwing away 5 years worth of work with nothing to show for it since the small amount of funds raised so far have gone towards basic living expenses. You act like they've made millions and are living like kings when each of them has been paid less salary than a janitor would receive...
Please take your own advice: stop being naive and making absurd, baseless accusations. Is your only goal to insult people by calling them fanboys and start a flamewar by posting blatantly false information and libel? These types of comments are uncalled for and are getting old.
Sgt. Floris
Member
What do you mean £160,055? The Kickstarter money isn't the only money they got. They sold about 70K copies of Exanima on Steam. With the current price of 15,- euros which is 13.42 pounds they made (13.42 x 70K) £939,400. Of this Valve takes a minimum of 30% tax because they allow Exanima to be sold on Steam. This leaves them with £657,580 in profits from Steam sales. Let's add that number to the £160,055 and we get a total profit of £817,635.
Seeing as you stated there are 7 devs we can divide this total by 7, this gives us £116,805 for 1 dev. Because the ''development time'' has been going on for about 5 years now we can also divide this number by 5 to give us an anual salary for 1 dev of £23,361. This is also assuming the dev didn't have any job on the side whatsoever.
Doesn't seem like such a bad gig to be honest seeing as I live off about £10K per year. I suggest you do some more research of your own instead of accusing people of making false accusations.
Tony
Insider
Your math is flawed. The estimated 70,000 owners you listed (which is inaccurate btw) is for all copies redeemed on Steam so far which includes free Steam keys redeemed. However, let's ignore the fact that the 70,000 estimate is too high and assume it is accurate. Out of that 70,000 estimate roughly 11,000 (every KS backer received at least 1 steam key and some as many as 3) of those were free Steam keys which were given out to KS backers. Several thousand more of those 70,000 Steam keys redeemed were from backers who contributed directly via the BM site after the KS campaign ended which allowed a contribution of $10 ($5 less than the current Steam price) which again reduces the overall income received. Then you left out other costs such as legal fees, taxes, site maintenance, content delivery network provider, etc. You also left out the funds that went towards hiring additional developers which were paid for many months yet ended up not working out such as Tony Dye, Leonid, Scott and others. You also did not subtract any of the fees associated with development such as sound and art assets which were purchased, rented studio time for audio recording/mastering, the percentage Kickstarter takes for using their site to crowdfund, etc.
Again, you are naively assuming that BM have made a profit so far when in reality they've each been paid less salary than a janitor would receive which has gone mostly towards basic living expenses and what I listed above. There's simply nothing left over for the devs to run away with or cash-in on.
Sgt. Floris
Member
You are right, I assume a lot. Seeing as the devs haven't shared any information with the community about a lot of the different parts of the development process how exactly are we to know all this? The only thing we can do is assume.
Also, good job on steering the discussion in a different direction altogether. This whole community is as toxic as it can be towards eachother and the devs aren't any better.
Tony
Insider
Okay, then answer me this: what are you doing to promote a non-toxic community? Are you being a part of the problem or the solution?
BadCompany141
Member
Call it ends, the only problem and concern here is the lack of communications and tony is working towards fixing this problem by giving us updates. I wouldn't worry about anything else too much
Sgt. Floris
Member
The community isn't the source of the toxicity, the devs are. When they start pushing out regular content and actually start to communicate then the problems being talked about are fixed.
Tony
Insider
I don't follow this line of reasoning. The devs not communicating much and taking longer than usual to release an update doesn't force the community to be toxic to one another. There's no reason people can't behave in a civilized manner and voice their opinions/concerns without attacking each other or the devs, which would be much more useful and help to promote a non-toxic community. It doesn't give the devs much incentive to interact more often if they're greeted by hostility when they attempt to do so.
Seems a bit combative in here! I don't see the problem as being development taking longer and natural complications of game development.
It's that the kickstarter set the expectation that those funds were required to deliver Sui Generis at a point in time.
Tony your words above basically say this was never realistic in the first place, by quite a way. Do you see people might feel like they've been had from that? As mentioned, a Publisher would not tolerate 'yeah sorry, not going to make the budget or release by a couple of years, hang with us...'
So once again, you can't expect all the people contributing to be happy with the outcome, regardless of the quality of Exanima and continued hard work.
In saying all that though, there's not much to be done now except support the devs to get the game done, or try for a refund (?).
Early access as the current system works relies on some faith from the supporters. In parallel Grim Dawn was released two years later than planned and grew and got more complex. It took a little faith too, but the released game was top quality and worth the wait as a result.
Let's give Bare Mettle the benefit of the doubt until the game is released or it really does go all quiet (nowhere near that yet, even if not all news hits here)
Tony
Insider
Of course I can understand that some people are upset or disappointed about the development taking longer than anticipated or the sparse communication and it's fine to voice those concerns in a civil manner. What I am not okay with is people attacking other community members or the devs, stating blatant lies and libel and attempting to start flamewars.
Agree there, calling the game vapourware etc is not on, even if one only came here for news.
Syllabear3
Member
Ok this worth a come back.
Poor people spending on a kickstarter -what is seems bad handled because i understood that it was not enough?- and then buying the demo again not even properly informed first in their own forums or mainpage but in steam... heck if i would be pissed.
I feel so good in drama and this definely this is worth reading. Fuck steam, give me more of this.
Now i understand some angry posters over time...
I rate all this "S"!
@Tony you got me excited threating these guys so bad...
Poor people spending on a kickstarter -what is seems bad handled because i understood that it was not enough?- and then buying the demo again not even properly informed first in their own forums or mainpage but in steam... heck if i would be pissed.
I feel so good in drama and this definely this is worth reading. Fuck steam, give me more of this.
Now i understand some angry posters over time...
I rate all this "S"!
@Tony you got me excited threating these guys so bad...
