What's taking so long?

[Homiccus]

As usual, my threepence in...

First thing to tackle is the "money issue".

[...]to give us an anual salary for 1 dev of £23,361. [...]

Doesn't seem like such a bad gig to be honest seeing as I live off about £10K per year.

For the sake of this argument, I'll be assuming this is correct.
Oh, man. An annual salary of £23k (less income tax and NI obviously) borders on a national minimum in the UK, even more so if you consider BM's HQ is in London (with all the associated expenses). It's hardly what I would call a "bonanza". A junior programmer picking their nose in a small telecom firm earns double that amount.
Financial situation of BM is not really "rosy". Have a look and make of it as you will:
http://www.bizdb.co.uk/company/bare-mettle-entertainment-ltd-08115532/
(this is a free financial report on Bare Mettle Entertainment Ltd. available online and without reservations which is easily obtainable by just googling "Bare Mettle finance report". As is the case with similar data, abusing it for anything else than forming your personal opinion is rather amoral and in some cases illegal and/or unlawful.)

Obviously it doesn't tell all the story, but one is certain - devs have not "cashed in on the idea" yet. Rather on the contrary.

And now on to this:

The devs not communicating much and taking longer than usual to release an update doesn't force the community to be toxic to one another.

I respectfully disagree. Mainly for this reason, as outlined by @Hyomoto:

I spent ~$180 on the Kickstarter, and one of the things that included was:
Insider forum
In this forum we will interact closely and openly with you to discuss features and development of the game. We will tell you what we're doing and how we're doing it, discuss ideas before they are final and listen to what you have to say.
[...]
I paid for that. With money I gave Bare Mettle, I paid to be shown and told what they were working on.

People tend to take notice the moment the service they paid for is not delivered. Took some of them five years of patience, but still.
Developing a game is not 5-minute job, I think we all understand this, but communicating on Steam more than on the dedicated Insider forum just added insult to injury. Understandably, the toxicity flows out... Think about it as buying an all-inclusive holiday in a 5-star hotel and then finding out that last-minute guests with no reservation have the priority over you to use the bar, the games room, the pool and the room service. You'd be pretty pi**ed off wouldn't you?
People have the right to bitch, rant and moan - they bought this right with hard-earned cash, at the Kickstarter checkout. I feel for you, Tony. You got the (unpaid) job of the guy in the reception.

 

[ZaratanCho]

That comparison makes no sense though.

With KS you basically payed for promises. You don't buy anything, most people tend to treat it as a store, which it is not(Not sure how it has changed over the years though).

It is just fact that nothing forces someone to be toxic, it is something that has to come from the individual. Clearly most people here are not 'toxic'.

It is understandable that at this time what communication there is, is mostly public, since it is sparce. Though people with insider access can join the insider discord channel, best bet for extra or early info.

 

[Homiccus]

I must admit the comparison wasn't one of my finest. Heh. I do hope however that it has some merit.

I agree, Kickstarter is not a shop, but rather a platform where a form of gentleman's agreement is reached. No one forces anyone to pledge more than absolute minimum to get the finished product, but those who do fork out the extra cash expect extra something in return. In this case, the list of extras has been clearly defined. And certain supporters clearly feel the promise has not been fulfilled.
I have missed out on KS campaign as I rarely ever support projects there and anyway would not pledge anything over absolute minimum as I don't follow any game development that closely. But I do understand the frustration over the lack of communication, especially if "paid for" in advance.
Now, from an "outsider's" point of view, we have very little to go on with in terms of development updates, whatever little there is, comes in dribs and drabs, mostly scrounged together from scraps by fervent followers like Tony (phenomenal work there). Now that is fine with me (as I prefer a polished gem to a millstone, even if it takes a decade to finish) but I imagine if I had thrown a wad of cash at the devs, got promised a close and frequent communication and got left with even less attention than Steam users, who all got in "for a tenner" (like me), I would be rather frustrated, to say the least...
This frustration could build over some time, and lack of news tend to foster grudges. Who is there to blame when the levee finally breaks?
Again, I agree with you, the "toxicity" comes from within. But in all fairness, even saints lose patience.

Please read the disclaimer in my sig.

 

[ZaratanCho]

Yeah, insiders(only) all have access to the insider forum and chat. It just isn't what was expected to be at the current moment. The insider forum used to be pretty active before Exanima released since it made sense.

Nowadays even the chat is quiet because the devs are 100% focused on getting an update out.

I gave a decent amount of money but still have no negative feelings what so ever. As long as i know the devs are doing their best(or at least close to it) then i have no real complaints. They are far more invested in the whole thing, they want the game a lot more than us.

The communication aspect is naturally affected by the overall change of plans, like everything else. It is clear BM couldn't foresee some things. Though i wouldn't say that is bad. I actually think how things went will be for the better. Not to mention they are very serious on not showing any spoilers before content release, which makes updates a bit more problematic ;d

Communication pretty much comes down to making individual people feel important and involved(at least in terms of people going on angry rants due to lack of it), which doesn't help or make the game come faster when resources and time is very limited.

Sure i personally will be happy with more info, insider or not. But that is just momentary satisfaction that does not last long and ultimately does nothing for me. Rather have an actual playable build and play it. Just gotta let it cook and put it out of your mind, do other things until it is ready for consumption if you can't stay calm. Cranking up the heat to try and make it ready sooner will only ruin it and you will starve.

Besides that, getting angry and such can only come from not seeing the whole picture.

Even in purely hypothetical scenario where development stops(a meteorite hits the BM office) i will just be a bit disappointed. It is what it is ;d I know when i donated that nothing is guaranteed.

I get sidetracked and write stuff, but i don't have a disclaimer like yourself. ;d

 

[Tony]

People tend to take notice the moment the service they paid for is not delivered. Took some of them five years of patience, but still.
Developing a game is not 5-minute job, I think we all understand this, but communicating on Steam more than on the dedicated Insider forum just added insult to injury. Understandably, the toxicity flows out... Think about it as buying an all-inclusive holiday in a 5-star hotel and then finding out that last-minute guests with no reservation have the priority over you to use the bar, the games room, the pool and the room service. You'd be pretty pi**ed off wouldn't you?
People have the right to bitch, rant and moan - they bought this right with hard-earned cash, at the Kickstarter checkout. I feel for you, Tony. You got the (unpaid) job of the guy in the reception.

Being toxic is always a choice - it is not forced upon anybody. The examples I gave of being toxic (which have occurred on this forum) were: "attacking other community members or the devs, stating blatant lies and libel and attempting to start flamewars". You are saying you think these toxic behaviors are okay? These actions are not okay on these forums under any circumstances regardless of one's reason(s) for doing so.

In the hotel example you gave above would it be okay for me to spit on the hotel owner's face, attack him, publicly spread blatant lies and libel against him, etc. because I was upset over the situation? No, these toxic behaviors would not be okay in your example either no matter how upset I was. Despite being upset I could choose to voice my concerns in a civilized manner and work the issue out; perhaps get a discount or some other form of compensation which is better than any possible outcome that would arise from being toxic.

When people choose to be toxic it discourages Bare Mettle from interacting with the toxic community, it doesn't encourage them to interact more closely. And if they have to spend time fixing problems created by toxic community members then it takes time away from development and can potentially hurt them financially as well (for example: when people spread false information, lies and libel). Again I say: wouldn't it be better to voice concerns in a non-toxic, civil manner? Doing so will have a much higher chance of people getting what they actually want rather than people becoming their own worst enemy by being toxic (which is likely to cause less dev interaction and further delays while they spend time putting out fires).

 

[Snoopbear]

I'd be tempted to say a screenshot would soothe the toxicity, but all this toxicity actually seems like an issue :/

 

[Syllabear3]

Comparing mature, wealthy people that barely care about games with gamers (aimed audience) ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Then calling them "toxic" after making them wait (i dont think 5 years is a joke for some people...) when they paid an amount equal to three fully developed games -in some cases, less or more- to see their promised game done.

Now that makes sense.

I don't know... i would be more respectful. They will be buying the finished game one day, if ever.

Being toxic is always a choice....

They are making a game about butchery, get ready to deal with people who will play your game... grow some thick skin boy.

 

[Homiccus]

The examples I gave of being toxic (which have occurred on this forum) were:

Before I answer in length, I would ask for clarification. Are you referring to Hyomoto's post specifically (as I did throughout this thread) or are you referring to "others" in general?

 

[Roryn]

I'd be tempted to say a screenshot would soothe the toxicity, but all this toxicity actually seems like an issue :/

So true. I'd always heard that the steam forums were pretty bad (but don't generally browse those so I wouldn't know), but that bad mojo is invading these forums quite terribly now, and that's quite recent.

Decimation -- That's the solution! Deactivate 10% of all the keys handed out to players and the rest of the dissidents will quiet down for a while.

 

[Snoopbear]

So true. I'd always heard that the steam forums were pretty bad (but don't generally browse those so I wouldn't know), but that bad mojo is invading these forums quite terribly now, and that's quite recent.

Decimation -- That's the solution! Deactivate 10% of all the keys handed out to players and the rest of the dissidents will quiet down for a while.

That would be tyranny though, would it not? -Edit: It would be like Russian roulette, Except you have the gun and you're trying to shoot the toxic person, by pulling the trigger once at all six players.

 

[Tony]

Before I answer in length, I would ask for clarification. Are you referring to Hyomoto's post specifically (as I did throughout this thread) or are you referring to "others" in general?

I was referring to toxic behavior in general, not one person. I was also addressing this comment made by you:

The devs not communicating much and taking longer than usual to release an update doesn't force the community to be toxic to one another.

I respectfully disagree.

I spent most of my response clarifying that being toxic is always a choice and never forced upon people (and usually a poor, self-defeating choice since it makes the situation worse, not better), regardless of the reason(s) why the person chose to be toxic in the first place. This applies to Hyomoto, the hypothetical upset customer in your hotel example and everyone else.

Again I say: wouldn't it be better to voice concerns in a non-toxic, civil manner? Doing so will have a much higher chance of people getting what they actually want rather than people becoming their own worst enemy by being toxic (which is likely to cause less dev interaction and further delays while they spend time putting out fires).

 

[Papacuda]

Well I do hope that Baremettle is making some good progress on their game. I sure look forward to the day that I get to play the full release, no matter how long it takes. Hopefully it doesn't take them another 5 years to finish but if it does, Ill still be just as excited when it comes out.

 

[Syllabear3]

I spent most of my response clarifying that being toxic is always a choice

Thats absolutly wrong... are you that young?

 

[Roryn]

That would be tyranny though, would it not? -Edit: It would be like Russian roulette, Except you have the gun and you're trying to shoot the toxic person, by pulling the trigger once at all six players.

Hehe yes, I was joking of course. Yours is a pretty funny analogy. It would at least make the toxic people scared!

Thats absolutly wrong... are you that young?

Well you could argue that it's wrong, as a lot of people seem to be doing, but surely you can't say that it's absolutely wrong. You're claiming that people who don't get news of a game literally lose all control over themselves.

 

[Sgt. Floris]

Yes, let's try to silence the 'toxic people' like the KGB did to people who didn't agree with the communist regime in Soviet Russia.

SMH

 

[ChildrenofMana]

Thats absolutly wrong... are you that young?

Being toxic is never a choice, it is the last resource, the bottom line.

(of course if someone is evil in nature (Trolls), toxic is more of a first choice fuelled by satisfaction, completely a different topic)

Anyhow, have you thought in what kind of situation an ordinary community member starts being toxic?

Anger, rage, deception, frustration and other mixture of negative feelings are in play.
Along with high heart rate, high pressure and other enzymes that makes your stomach feel it has a black hole and you head double its size.
Have you ever been in a similar situation?

Any reasoning or civil-manners are thrown from the window, the body just want to release and express.
Combining the fact that not everybody can contain or divert the negative feelings, or are not mature enough to wait until you cool down before witting, the last resource is always protect yourself, survive by releasing all the toxic feelings in form of a written reply in a forum or chat.

This not an excuse for those with toxic behaviour, but as an understanding of what kind of person is often (not always) behind the monitor.

I kind of understand the people who pledge money into the KS campaign, some are content and others might feel deception. I have myself recommended and gifted exanima several times with no regrets whatsoever. I am thankful of Bare Mettle for creating this awesome (in development) game.

However, BM is not talented in public relations and the community often feels neglected as Madoc himself wrote in his reply. I just hope they could write more frequent.

 

[Homiccus]

(snip)

Cor Blimey, @ChildrenofMana... I've just scrapped a page-long tirade-answer to Tony after reading your reply. You nailed it.

 

[Tony]

Yes, let's try to silence the 'toxic people' like the KGB did to people who didn't agree with the communist regime in Soviet Russia.

SMH

Crap, he's on to me! *packs up his top secret KGB mind control gear which forces people to be toxic against their will*... nothing to see here, folks! *whistles innocently*

All I've requested is that people behave like civilized human beings and voice their concerns in a civil manner which is a far cry from attempting to silence people. If I were attempting to silence people it would require only a few mouse clicks and I wouldn't be engaging in lengthy discussions with them (basically the complete opposite of silencing).

Cor Blimey, @ChildrenofMana... I've just scrapped a page-long tirade-answer to Tony after reading your reply. You nailed it.

Notice how they chose to do so in a civil manner rather than being toxic? Their non-toxic words were much more meaningful, useful and helpful than if they would have chosen to respond in a toxic manner (yes, being toxic is a choice and not mandatory or forced -- the only exception I can think of is if one were suffering from tourette syndrome which is involuntary and would consist of random, incoherent outbursts and not well-structured written posts). I'm honestly a bit surprised so many people seem to believe they are not responsible for their actions... I must be getting old; I remember the good old days when people took responsibility for their actions and had to walk uphill both directions .

 

[Fanzeo]

Hey Tony,

I think you've taken the appropriate measures to inform the forums regarding the reasoning for sparse details, while trying to mitigate conflict to the best of your abilities. It's difficult because the justifications for the discontent are valid, as the development period has been quite long for fairly minimal content. Again, it's a small development team with an incredibly ambitious vision which equates to the trial and error process you've highlighted. Despite the limited content, I've already poured numerous hours into this game and still feel justified in my purchase.

The only piece of advice I could give Baremettle is to create status updates within each communication medium at least every 2 months or so. I know other developers have stated that those periods of progress may be fairly dry, in the vein of "debugging x companion's AI, etc," but you would be surprised how the dry and technical progress can be highly appreciated by a small community in starvation for updates. Again, this sense of starvation has made the community ravenous and even morsels of communication can curb the toxicity.

I'm not an insider, but regarding the exclusive videos and screenshots I think you underestimate how anything remotely unique, either armor models or terrain, goes a long way. It's just to maintain the integrity of exclusive deliverance and doesn't have to be every week. Again, set timelines that don't interfere with productivity.

The only thing I could reiterate, which has been said time and time again, is patience. This is a virtue which doesn't feel remotely rewarding until we reach the end of the trek. I'm extremely excited for the next update and consider myself a die-hard fan. This doesn't extend to dogmatically supporting developers over criticism, but I do have a great deal of admiration for the perseverance of this development team working steadily in lieu of any tangible profit. I have no doubts that the funding and sales are only keeping this small team afloat, and they aren't some nefarious faction of early access developers spending everything on hookers and blow.

Hopefully you pass on my advice in some fashion. As long as all parties are kept in the loop, in a consistent to semi consistent manner, I think you will see the community morale improve significantly. Good luck with the development and keep your chins up! Here's hoping we see something within the next week or two.

 

[Syllabear3]

Being toxic is never a choice, it is the last resource, the bottom line.

(of course if someone is evil in nature (Trolls), toxic is more of a first choice fuelled by satisfaction, completely a different topic)

Anyhow, have you thought in what kind of situation an ordinary community member starts being toxic?

Anger, rage, deception, frustration and other mixture of negative feelings are in play.
Along with high heart rate, high pressure and other enzymes that makes your stomach feel it has a black hole and you head double its size.
Have you ever been in a similar situation?

Any reasoning or civil-manners are thrown from the window, the body just want to release and express.
Combining the fact that not everybody can contain or divert the negative feelings, or are not mature enough to wait until you cool down before witting, the last resource is always protect yourself, survive by releasing all the toxic feelings in form of a written reply in a forum or chat.

This not an excuse for those with toxic behaviour, but as an understanding of what kind of person is often (not always) behind the monitor.

I kind of understand the people who pledge money into the KS campaign, some are content and others might feel deception. I have myself recommended and gifted exanima several times with no regrets whatsoever. I am thankful of Bare Mettle for creating this awesome (in development) game.

However, BM is not talented in public relations and the community often feels neglected as Madoc himself wrote in his reply. I just hope they could write more frequent.

Well you could argue that it's wrong, as a lot of people seem to be doing, but surely you can't say that it's absolutely wrong. You're claiming that people who don't get news of a game literally lose all control over themselves.

Not everyone has the same limits. For ones are a spit in the face and others just a few words.
Everyone has diferent kind of lives and experiences through it, making them less or more reactive (ive been for the longest time the most inocent and pure creature on earth to becoming what i am now thanks to i am a sponge that absorb my enviroment and been exposed to the world too long).

The best you can do is redirect those bad feelings but not victimizing yourself and calling out toxic to everyone who is pissed at you. Thats insanely immature and i've seen it in many decaying places already.
If you got a bad reaction from people then repair it. You are talking with a person who never got anyone angry anywhere (not applied in internet ), and i immediately try to repair if i did wrong.

Call it karma if you want. Action and reaction.
I am not here to give life lessons, get on your feet, so don't put everyone in the same bag because thats bad thing to do.