Armour/weapon penetration

[Fatman]

Hello,

As my first forum post I'd just like to say that I came across the video of the alpha version of the game today and was extremely impressed with the idea/gameplay mechanics behind this game.

From reading what I can, I understand that this game will be making using of rather accurate weapon weights/distributions to effect character interactions and physics as such and this brings me to a really interesting point. Considering the fact that damage will be area specific and from what I gather there will be armour weak points etc...

Will there be realistic/semi-realistic weapon penetration values based on the given weight of a weapon, its effective mass and the effective energy it contains in a blow?

For instance, a light weight short sword with relatively low mass would be quite ineffective vs plate armour when delivering slashing blows, as the inherent mass and energy behind the weapon simply isn't great enough along the length of the blade. However, if you were to thrust and stab at the armour, considering your focusing all the energy on a single focal point rather than the length of the blade, your ability to penetrate and kill the target would be much greater.

If you were to say use a mace or morning star, then your ability to penetrate plate armour would be far greater, as the large mass of the weapon is located at the head where most of the energy will be contained within a blow, allowing you to crush their armour.

As an example, say you were playing the role of a quick agile bandit and had a light short sword and some leather armour and came across a lone knight in some grand plate armour. You think to yourself "I would really like that armour", but the likelihood of you being able to kill the knight with your measly weapon is rather low considering the inherent difficulty you will face in penetrating his armour. But lets say you had a mace or morning star instead. You may be lightly armoured, but your fast, quick and agile and now have a weapon that has very high penetration through being able to crush his armour. This effectively allows you to negate his armour, whilst being able to maintain your speed and agility in combat, allowing you to defeat him with greater ease.

I personally believe this would be really immersive and would add a great deal of depth to the game play and game play choices, as you would have to consider the strategic value of carrying various weaponry vs various opponents.

Feedback and thoughts would be appreciated.

 

[Komuflage]

Hi and welcome to the forums. I'm pretty sure there will be some type of armour penetration, although I don't think a sword will be able to penetrate it.
However, Crushing based weapons will be able to deal with a armoured knight more successfully, just as you suggest

Just let me summon @Elric von Rabenfels to answer this one
"However, if you were to thrust and stab at the armour, considering your focusing all the energy on a single focal point rather than the length of the blade, your ability to penetrate and kill the target would be much greater."

 

[Elric von Rabenfels]

Just let me summon @Elric von Rabenfels to answer this one
"However, if you were to thrust and stab at the armour, considering your focusing all the energy on a single focal point rather than the length of the blade, your ability to penetrate and kill the target would be much greater."

*In a cloud of black smoke, Elric appears*

It seems like I have been summoned to answer my question.
Here is my answer:

I'm strongly opposed to the whole notion of even a fully charged swing cutting through *any* plate - I've seen the hard physical data of the maths for what sort of force is required for a longsword blade to actually cut through a cheap, lightweight breastplate averaging 1.6mm thick, based on the metalurgical analysis of such items by Dr Alan Williams, for an impact deep enough to give a certain blow...

its a force in excess of 20,000 joules.

to put it into perspective, you know the "test your strenght" machines where you hit a weight, and it goes flying up to ring a bell?

one of them.

An energy output of 20,000 joules is roughly equivalent of launching a 1kg weight upwards... to a height of 740 metres.

Let me say that again. 740 metres. that's the force needed to chop through an average of 1.6mm, for a length of 10cm - long enough to also go into the body for a definate kill - Actual breastplates were often significantly thicker - up to 3mm on thier thicker areas, and those in german or italian workshops were also harder than the averages used by Williams for his research.

No human on this planet could produce such a force. it is not simply difficult, it is superhumanly difficult.


Now, peircing, that's much simpler.
All that involves it is a simple, little puncture, to bend and peel the metal away to let it go in further.

Returning to Dr. Alan Williams, tests indicate that it takes a force of approximately 120 joules to puncture a 15th C breastplate, of average hardness.

Returning to the test your weight machine again, that's about the equivalent of hitting the same aforementioned weight about 11 metres into the air. 11 metres is pretty damn tough. but its not superhumanly impossible, like 740 metres altitude would be, for the force to cleave the breastplate open with a cut.
Put two hands behind the weapon, to brace it (ie, 2h spears, polearms) and that force becomes much more practical.

I hope this post puts things into perspective. And remember, that example talks about a CHEAP and LOW QUALITY breastplate. So penetration of any kind with the small shortsword is impossible in the cut, and extremely unlikely with a stab. Same goes for all swords of normal size.

And it all changes when it comes to penetration of ranged weapons like bows and crossbows, so we can't just convert this to ranged balance at all.

Would also like to thank my personal historical advisor and professor, James, for providing me with the raw and scientific data.

 

[Empire²]

Once again, Elric to the rescue! If only I didn't suck at Physics so much.

So, if you guys, like, want to know anything about, like, ancient history, and like, game design and philosophy and stuff, let me know. That way I won't feel utterly useless

I hope we do actually get to see some early form of ranged combat soon. I'm eager to see the mechanics and the power your average English Longbow has, and how it's different from, like Elric said, the piercing damage of a melee weapon.

 

[Darkzone]

A great summon Kamuflage. Could you teach me this spell?
Also Elric is correct. No chance of cutting through an plate armor. Pierce weapons on the other hand are a different thing. Daggers should not have this possibility (the dagger would slip away from the trajectory of penetration in my estimation), but two handed weapons (like hellebarde, pole axes, awl-pike or even spears) or bodkin arrows (metal arrow heads necessary, because wood would deform and loss its piercing shape and also slip from the trajectory of penetration) with enough speed and mass could do the trick. Also not to forget the war hammers or the horseman's pick.

 

[Komuflage]

A great summon Kamuflage.

Easiest way is to just get a Summon Divine Elric scroll, however if you want to learn the spell, you need to be a lvl 4 Wiz/sor and be skilled in the Conjuration art.
The Casting time is 1 round.
And the range is Global.
However the Duration is 4rounds + 1d4.
There is no Saving Throw against it.
However you must make a quite hard spell check with 1D20 + Caster Level + Forum Modifier, and it must succeed 18.

However it's one of the most Powerful Forums spell, with only, Summon Dev, and Greater Summon Dev Madoc surpassing it.


Anyways, I thank Elric for his wisdom, it's always nice to read what you got to say.

 

[Fatman]

*In a cloud of black smoke, Elric appears*

It seems like I have been summoned to answer my question.
Here is my answer:



I hope this post puts things into perspective. And remember, that example talks about a CHEAP and LOW QUALITY breastplate. So penetration of any kind with the small shortsword is impossible in the cut, and extremely unlikely with a stab. Same goes for all swords of normal size.

And it all changes when it comes to penetration of ranged weapons like bows and crossbows, so we can't just convert this to ranged balance at all.

Would also like to thank my personal historical advisor and professor, James, for providing me with the raw and scientific data.

That was some great info guys, thanks.

Sounds like this game is shaping up to be really good. Accurate weapon/armour penetrations will go a long way to giving it that sense of realism and challenge that'll keep people coming back for more.

I can only image just how powerful one will feel in a full suit of high quality plate armour up against ill equipped foes who are unable to get through your armour

 

[BigT2themax]

That was some great info guys, thanks.

Sounds like this game is shaping up to be really good. Accurate weapon/armour penetrations will go a long way to giving it that sense of realism and challenge that'll keep people coming back for more.

I can only image just how powerful one will feel in a full suit of high quality plate armour up against ill equipped foes who are unable to get through your armour

Well, to be fair, what Elric posted, is just that, factual info based on real life (though interesting and cool, nonetheless!). We've no real idea as to how realistic Bare Mettle are going to make armour, as I don't think any of the dev team have commented on that.

Looking at the grand list of dev quotes, it just states that armour will cover specific body parts and offer protection, but what kind of protection, and the specifics of it, haven't been commented on.

 

[fluffydino2000]

They mentioned after the Halberd Combat Test Dev vid that they wanted to do an update on this kind of thing but they were too busy.

Btw we've added a first version of item stats and I've been meaning to send you our ideas on damage and armour mitigation but it's a crazy rush to complete stuff for the video right now.

This is an insider snoop for some of you, I could get in trouble.

 

[Fatman]

Didn't realise before, but during the alpha gameplay video at 5:40-6:00 you can see the dev mousing over the weapons displaying their "item stats" I guess you could say.

Looks like it gives an indication to the weapons weight, impact, balance and its form of attack? (bardiche and two handed sword = slash whilst mace = crush).

They mentioned after the Halberd Combat Test Dev vid that they wanted to do an update on this kind of thing but they were too busy.



This is an insider snoop for some of you, I could get in trouble.

The description of the flanged mace says "Well crafted from high quality steel, this flanged mace is ideal for penetrating armour and crushing bone", so maybe armour penetration and armour mitigation as they put it, is something they'll be working towards implementing soon?

 

[ZaratanCho]

Yeah any average chump puts on plate armor and is now a powerful badass, so cool. Soon people will stop breathing by themselves too, because you know, a machine can do it for you ;D(not so funny though). Skill and self always beats tools and size, you have the most powerful weapon, your own body (How much it takes and what you have to "sacrifice" to utilize it is another question). Such things are made for use by soldiers and high range of people, mostly average people who don't have the determination or resolve to become strong themselves(it should be obvious i know there is alot of training and conditioning in military organizations). Someone masterful in fighting and combat should never rely and cling to his weapon or tools and be wary or scared by the opponents weapon.

Real life will always be stranger than fiction, if you dare to look beyond what you are told all your life and try to think for yourself (not easy, well maybe for someone it is ;D). So many people compare everything to the majority of the population and thats what they consider realistic(such a 'nice' word ;d), there may be only one person in existence that can do something no one else can, just because only one person can do it and it is not widely known doesn't make it invalid and not real(sigh). Everyone easily accept things as absolute truth if presented by some sort of 'authority' and thats all. Just as saying "It is proven by science" so this is how it is. It is not proven by science, it is proven by scinetists, huge difference(should be obvious enough what it is at least basically). ;D

In the game world you will probably not aim to be a "normal" person, you will seek growth/power and it is easier there. Plate armor is very effective and quite great in what it is designed for, and it should be hard to deal with it(not being able to cut through and such), but on higher level of combat it shouldn't matter so much unless there are other factors or the armor is more special in some way. I aggree for plate to be as Elric says, but for a skilled 'player' who has progressed very far it shouldn't be such a huge hurdle that it makes anyone a "mini boss"/"boss". Unless he is strong himself.

The question always is can this or that work in the game and how, considering the resources available(just thinking about a different type of armor, though this might work well without doing anyting).

I am aiming to be as objective as possible and not influenced by my own feelings or opinion, my very poor explaining skills don't help though. Whatever, don't pay too much attention to me. ;d

 

[Elric von Rabenfels]

The heck did that come from, and how is it at all related to the discussion?

Obviously a great martial artist would be able to disarm, down and take a man in plate armour out of the action if that man in armour is no good at all.
That's why I'm all for takedowns or at least pushing abilities ingame to make it very possible to beat someone in plate armour, just not by CUTTING trough it with a sword.

And sorry, but it's not possible for any human to CUT trough plate armour.
It's just not. Physics say no. It doesn't matter how strong you are. The human body can NOT gather enough strength to slice trough plate with a blade. It's not possible. Not even the strongest man in the world could.

You'd need to be Hulk, and as sad as that is, Hulk and superpowers don't exist at this time and date. Downtalking the results of scientists (even with added ;D and ) is also very disrespectful in my opinion. Everyone can talk smart. Now providing results and date, that is what not everyone can. You almost sound a bit like a conspiracy theorist to me... "If you dare to look beyond what you're told..."
No offence intended. I'm just estranged by your reply.

 

[ZaratanCho]

As expected ;D. Well i know this is probably not the best thread, but i was trying to make a point for the effectiveness of plate armor and overcoming it, and was thinking about what have been said about it in other threads, It has some relevance, but not so much, i apologize. If piercing through body/armor and cutting in will be implemented at all.

Feel free to delete my post. ;D

I'll try to refrain from posting besides feedback when alpha starts.

 

[fluffydino2000]

Woah, don't stop posting, it just seemed out of place, that's all. I think I see what you're trying to say, that just because science says it's impossible and that nobody knows of it's occurrence doesn't mean it didn't happen. And it's a valuable point to make. However, for something like plate armour, it's not worth discussing, because if the game let's you do it, then it will do so for balance reasons, and that's the developers call, not because it could of happened. If it can't happen, then you can mod in the ability to do it with thaumaturgy or ridiculous physiques to let it happen.

Discussing how to balance it on the other hand is a good idea. But it's been done, and in another thread, which you know. So don't stop posting, just try to stay on topic.

 

[Darkzone]

We should not forget that that the knights (most or many of them) were hightly trained professionals. If they have put their plate armor on they were a menacing war machines. They had build up their muscles to wear such an suit for a longer period of time and could easy swing a longsword. I certainly wouldn't without a way to pierce though their armor and at least a chain mail attack them. And i do lift weights and do martial arts. Mostly the knights are portrayed like a clumsy tortoise, but that is not appropriate. They could very well swing their swords and move fast, and certainly they were not clumsy. A plate armor did not make them invincible but has highly raised their chance of survival.

 

[The Witcher]

Actually maces and morningstars was effective vs plate armor but the whole idea of a mace was to hit with shocking damage i mean with a hit to deliver a lot of force to the guy that wears the plate and break his bones and etc but if that guy had Plate Armor and under it a chainmail and a padded cloth you couldnt do that much damage.

 

[Holy.Death]

If I recall correctly you don't cut enemies through armor. You attack weak points not covered by armor. It's possible even when enemy has a full plate on him. In game it's not possible to go into that level of detail though. You need abstractions to make it fun. So trade-off is that while you can't severely damage enemy in armor (make his health bar go red), but you can "wear him down" by eating his stamina away (make yellow bar grey-ish).