Improvments on camera controls in Exanima

[The Office Rat]

I have been playing Exanima for a little while now, and it is pretty cool. But the one thing that keeps bothering me is the camera controls. If one would be able to lock the camera behind the character and/or possibly a target lock system where the camera follows the line of the enemy and the player, enemy being in focus, leaving your mouse free to use attacks and directional block. (spamming the space-key was not that fun)

 

[TwoPumpWarrior]

You are not supposed to fight with a locked perspective. Not only will this complicate the combat, but it is fundamentally in opposition to the developers vision. There is a sort of camera follow that helps the camera stay behind the character but even this is not advised and it's implementation was deemed "experimental".

It helps to learn to operate your character in exploration and combat from any camera angle. I play with a very active camera using my Middle Mouse Button to continuously scan the environment. I hope you can understand that this is something that is not likely to change. I encourage you to continue playing the game and try out many different styles that are subtlety available.

Please respond with any thoughts and criticisms, it's very much appreciated to hear your perspective

 

[ZaratanCho]

You shouldn't move the camera much when fighting, it is mostly for exploring. You should be able to fight well from most angles if not all. Especially having it behind your back makes it harder to judge reach and distance.

There used to be an experimental soft camera follow option, because of feedback but it was removed in the beta(pretty sure devs said they considered it a failed expetiment). Don't think that many people used it and it only handicapps you when you learn to fight.

Those things really don't make much sense, you are treating as a typical rpg or rather 3rd person game. If you let go and try to play with no preconception on how it should be you will probably have a much, much easier time getting used to it.

Only occasionally tap space to move it when you have to. I'm trying to use space as little as i can though sometimes i feel i use it too much. ;d

 

[Octo]

I think the camera should track ahead a bit in the direction you are moving.
When running, what is behind me if of little interest and I feel I can't see far enough to see where I am running.
The distance the camera tracks ahead should change depending on your pace, maybe 25-75% back-forward bias when running and 40/60 when walking.
When standing still the character should be centered.

 

[Vold]

Make an experiment, play in the arena with the space bar pressed at all times. You will immediately realize why camera lock is not such a good idea.
Target lock is not needed either, and would couse troubles with multiple enemies.
The current system has been tested for a long while, most of new players find it awkward at the beginning but after a while the end up loving it, most of the times.

 

[Octo]

Forcing people to get used to something is not the same as "tried and tested" which you make it sound like.
I still avoid having the camera facing my character, as that "inverts" left/right.

 

[TwoPumpWarrior]

But that's what every game does, it forces the player to commit to their control scheme. It doesn't matter at that point if another game did it better or if some input is superfluous. Adding key bindings helps to alleviate the frustration but it does not change the fact that you are playing the game how they want you to play the game.

The difference here is that many games use familiar schema that gamers are comfortable with. But put the controller in non-gamer hands and they will undoubtedly flounder. That is the trouble here, everyone is learning this scheme from ground zero without any really relevant past experience to guide them. Simply playing the game how the developers intended is outside that comfort zone and it can illicit emotional stresses when coupled with an unclear understanding of the system.

 

[Ben Curtis]

Make an experiment, play in the arena with the space bar pressed at all times. You will immediately realize why camera lock is not such a good idea.
Target lock is not needed either, and would couse troubles with multiple enemies.
The current system has been tested for a long while, most of new players find it awkward at the beginning but after a while the end up loving it, most of the times.

That is not a fair test at all! If you hold down the spacebar, the camera tracks the mouse movement. What would be nice to test would be a camera lock that tracks your target, so your target is always in front of you, or in whatever position relative to your character on the screen that you choose by rotating with middle mouse button. This way you still get full control over the cursor, you never get confused about which direction WASD will make you turn (as it's always the same relative to your point of focus, your opponent), and you just get to focus on the fighting.

Given all the other technical hurdles that have been overcome to get to this point I think it would be good for the Bare Mettle guys to at least put in a target camera lock option for us to play with.

Another thing I'd really like to see is a closer zoom, it would be very useful when not in combat mode to find objects and make interacting with things easier. Given the focus on realism in texture and lighting design, I see no reason why you shouldn't be able to see things closer to the perspective of your character.

 

[TwoPumpWarrior]

That is not a fair test at all! If you hold down the spacebar, the camera tracks the mouse movement. What would be nice to test would be a camera lock that tracks your target, so your target is always in front of you, or in whatever position relative to your character on the screen that you choose by rotating with middle mouse button. This way you still get full control over the cursor, you never get confused about which direction WASD will make you turn (as it's always the same relative to your point of focus, your opponent), and you just get to focus on the fighting.

With target lock, the game becomes very simple given you face one opponent, so test away in the arena we know it works there. But two opponents? Three? This is a very simply problem that target lock can't solve without adding more and more tertiary input that distracts from the real substance here, fighting.

I agree that target lock systems are indeed valuable, but the game needs to be designed around that system from the beginning. It can't be thrown in after the fact. Souls games and Zelda games do this very well, but every encounter is specifically designed around target lock interaction. Here, there isn't anything so simple. The combat itself won't even function as intended, which should be a huge red flag.

I get it though, you hate fussing with your camera during fights. This doesn't solve that problem either though.
It only creates a different reason for fussing with your camera. No, it demands that you fuss with your camera now. And that is unacceptable. I wish I had a suggestion for you but we're all beating a dead horse at this point.

I am proof the system works, the devs are proof the system works, any one enjoying the controls are proof. There is huge precedent that the controls work showing precision and intent in your play. Some might think otherwise, but yes, the controls are tried and tested at this point.

 

[Avramovic]

TBH camera lock would probably make fights feel less 'free', but also less cumbersome, allowing more precision. Maybe somehow combat mode could get optional camera lock that could be disabled/enabled?This all being a theory of mine, since I still can't run the game for more than few minutes before it degrades to a mess of black stripes and error messages.

 

[ZaratanCho]

Won't really work. Yes things like the old camera follow or constantly spamming space(which is bad thing to do) will appear to help when you are still a beginner and terrible at the game. But what it is doing is just helping you force the game to play more like what you are used to which simply will never work well or at all.

I was pressing space heck of a lot in the first combat alpha. I do it now rarely in arena and its really when i start losing control of the fight as in letting the enemy control the fight(circling me attacking me non stop etc). ;d

 

[Ben Curtis]

With target lock, the game becomes very simple given you face one opponent, so test away in the arena we know it works there. But two opponents? Three? This is a very simply problem that target lock can't solve without adding more and more tertiary input that distracts from the real substance here, fighting.

I agree that target lock systems are indeed valuable, but the game needs to be designed around that system from the beginning. It can't be thrown in after the fact. Souls games and Zelda games do this very well, but every encounter is specifically designed around target lock interaction. Here, there isn't anything so simple. The combat itself won't even function as intended, which should be a huge red flag.

I get it though, you hate fussing with your camera during fights. This doesn't solve that problem either though.
It only creates a different reason for fussing with your camera. No, it demands that you fuss with your camera now. And that is unacceptable. I wish I had a suggestion for you but we're all beating a dead horse at this point.

I am proof the system works, the devs are proof the system works, any one enjoying the controls are proof. There is huge precedent that the controls work showing precision and intent in your play. Some might think otherwise, but yes, the controls are tried and tested at this point.

Souls games have optional target lock and in action games you design your camera around the way people play, you don't design combat around your camera, speaking as a game dev myself.

In the souls games most encounters have multiple opponents, and target locked camera works just fine. You only swing your weapon at one person at a time after all. If you have one of said games, you'll know that turning target lock off can be useful, but most of the time it is useful because you can always know that you are at least facing in the right direction, and you don't need to abstract in your head where your character will move.

I guarantee you the primary negative feedback everyone will have with this game is in the camera and the controls, just having a target lock system will allow people to play the way they want to play for the game they paid for. I think it should be included if anything for user-testing purposes, until then all the people who like this system are defending it and people like myself are contesting the rigidity from devs and the community.

There is a seeming unwillingness to test variants of the controls and camera system, or to let variants co-exist with what's there already, and I think that's a shame. Until it's been tried, it's just conjecture and assumption on the behalf of all of us (if it's been tried and failed already I take that back!)

 

[Tony]

Souls games have optional target lock and in action games you design your camera around the way people play, you don't design combat around your camera, speaking as a game dev myself.

In the souls games most encounters have multiple opponents, and target locked camera works just fine. You only swing your weapon at one person at a time after all. If you have one of said games, you'll know that turning target lock off can be useful, but most of the time it is useful because you can always know that you are at least facing in the right direction, and you don't need to abstract in your head where your character will move.

I guarantee you the primary negative feedback everyone will have with this game is in the camera and the controls, just having a target lock system will allow people to play the way they want to play for the game they paid for. I think it should be included if anything for user-testing purposes, until then all the people who like this system are defending it and people like myself are contesting the rigidity from devs and the community.

There is a seeming unwillingness to test variants of the controls and camera system, or to let variants co-exist with what's there already, and I think that's a shame. Until it's been tried, it's just conjecture and assumption on the behalf of all of us (if it's been tried and failed already I take that back!)

First off, the devs did not simply decide to design the combat around the camera. The devs designed the control scheme to support the mechanics and functionality they wanted to include. The devs are all veteran gamers who have been gaming for several decades; they're familiar with nearly every control scheme in existence and they tried several different approaches when prototyping the current control scheme, including things like having the camera relative to the screen instead of the character. So far nothing has been suggested that the devs haven't already taken into consideration while designing their current control scheme.

You say there is a seeming unwillingness to test variants of the controls and camera system but this simply is not true. The devs HAVE tested numerous variations while prototyping their current system. They also included a camera follow option when suggested by forum members, which later was removed due to causing more issues than it solved.

In order to allow everything to function properly their current control/camera system does require a static camera during combat. This isn't because they thought this would be a good foundation to build off of, rather it was what they discovered worked the best after testing multiple different variations. The devs are open-minded and will try new suggestions if doing so won't restrict or inhibit functionality.

The game offers a lot of versatility and unique features which are possible due to the control scheme. New gamers are going to have to stop trying to force what they've learned in other games onto Exanima/Sui Generis and start from scratch. This may be frustrating at first but it will pay off in the end by allowing things that simply aren't possible in other games. I know from firsthand experience since the control scheme has become muscle memory for me and no longer requires any thought to use effectively; not only does it function but it functions very well and it's very efficient, requiring few key presses yet allowing almost limitless possibilites.

 

[Anthony Obilor]

Souls games have optional target lock and in action games you design your camera around the way people play, you don't design combat around your camera, speaking as a game dev myself.

In the souls games most encounters have multiple opponents, and target locked camera works just fine. You only swing your weapon at one person at a time after all. If you have one of said games, you'll know that turning target lock off can be useful, but most of the time it is useful because you can always know that you are at least facing in the right direction, and you don't need to abstract in your head where your character will move.

I guarantee you the primary negative feedback everyone will have with this game is in the camera and the controls, just having a target lock system will allow people to play the way they want to play for the game they paid for. I think it should be included if anything for user-testing purposes, until then all the people who like this system are defending it and people like myself are contesting the rigidity from devs and the community.

There is a seeming unwillingness to test variants of the controls and camera system, or to let variants co-exist with what's there already, and I think that's a shame. Until it's been tried, it's just conjecture and assumption on the behalf of all of us (if it's been tried and failed already I take that back!)

*Rolls sword arm "time for some troll slaying".

Dear Mr. "Dev"
Ok let me address all your issues for you so it doesn't distract the devs from making an awesome game.


Like you said, in Souls games, & in 3rd person action games. The souls series uses the genre defined third person action camera that is always stuck behind the player, Exanima is not a 3rd person action adventure. Maybe its because they added the space-button to move the camera behind the player, if they didnt people wouldnt complain that they cant use it. Maybe thats why other isometric RPG like Pillars use a fixed top down camera, and so no one cries "you need new camera and controls". Give them full rotation of camera and they want to stick it to your @$$.

The team at Bare Mettle have evolved the normal point and click gameplay of ALL other isometric rpgs(I dare you to name 1 that doesn't use pre-canned moves) into a hybrid of isometric rpg and 3rd person adventure. They have made possible the dynamic action of a 3rd person adventure game in a more complex isometric RPG. What you are doing wrong is trying to play an isometric-rpg like a 3rd person adventure.

I have played this game since the beginning of April and I can say I am fully comfortable with the control scheme. I do not use space-bar at all, its true purpose which is what I use it for is in the dungeon in a narrow corridor where I would like to see down the corridor, and even at that I use the middle-mouse button most of the time to do quick iterations; I can fight with the camera in any angle. You must first stop trying to make the game like you want it to play, they have already tested what you suggest and thrown it out the window as it limits the new hybrid system.

Target lock is even worse, it is a handicap because todays shallow gamers cannot aim by themselves. It is also used because games want to make giant monsters and because their * camera system is limited so they use auto-lock to make it easier and for the combat to be more fluid. Try fighting in shadow of mordor but try to imagine the game without auto-lock, you wont see many enemies who are off-screen or at certain angles from you. The isometric camera solves this problem by allowing you to see all around you. The mouse cursor further improves this by acting as a dynamic target-lock. So guess what there is target-lock of sorts, you simply don't know how to use it and vent because it doesnt work like your old toy; Your character always faces where your cursor is pointing relative to where your character is, imagine the cursor is where your characters eyes are looking, he even turns his bloody head to where the cursor is!!! what you are looking for is for him to be locked-on cuz u cant aim!!!

The movement controls are very simple, just simply not locked to the camera like most games. The controls don't change depending where you are facing.

Combat Mode
W - Step Forward
S - Step Back
A - Strafe Left
D - Strafe Right

Exploration Mode *(note right mouse button is what you should be using for exploration mode, only use wasd in certain situations like if you would like to walk through a door and close it without stopping)
W - Step Forward
S - Step Back
A - Turn Left
D - Turn Right

What confuses you (you poor soul) is instead of the camera following your back, when you facing down,the controls become inverted to the camera, but that is a problem only because you are thinking of controls relative to the camera. I will be gentle about this because it was awkward at first but then when you actively think A will always move my character left, W forward..... actively stop thinking of it relative to the camera and before you know it it becomes natural, but without actively trying to unlearn bad habits, you will always have problems.

Also, anyone that paid for this game paid for a game that the DEVs advertised and pitched, they arent our personal game-making monkeys. You dont go to a store buy a pair of timberland boots, then go back and tell them they should remake it with memory foam inside because adidas did it like that. Y U BUY? No youtube? cant read the descrptions and what the devs have said? Stop calling the devs and community rigid cuz we can see the awesomeness and evolution of gaming and you are simply stuck in your ways and want the same games like yesterday, but with Bare Mettles shiny physics, sry go ask Souls to make physics.

Everything you have complained about and said, all point to making the game easier because you are trying to make it play like what it is not. This is where your failure and frustration stem from. I will tell you something as a gamer since asteroids and atari. I have touched on game development, I studied games media in college, there is no game I cannot finish, if I stop playing its cuz I lose interest. I do not find games hard, on the contrary instead I mod it till the game cant run *cry skyrim. Ramping up the difficulty is stupid cuz all it does is increase stats to make it harder not smarter. Most of todays games are fast-food games, made fast by regurgitating what has already been done. COD 1 plays the same way as COD5, there are no new control schemes, its just changing clothes and some shiny new accessories. Most games only look better with a different story and theme but play almost identically. It seems society will forever not understand evolution till a generation later. I will post one of my favourite quotes

"The problem about smart mother******s, is they always sound like crazy mother******s to dumb mother******s"

The devs have said it many a time, Exanima is totally different, if you are not ready to step out of your box, or be ready to learn something new thats is...yes you guessed it, more complicated and advanced and even more precise than what you are used to then pls do not ruin it for others by asking them to dumb-it down.

 

[tiny lampe]

Souls games have optional target lock and in action games you design your camera around the way people play, you don't design combat around your camera, speaking as a game dev myself.

Souls game have optional skimpy armor and in action games you design your armor around the way people expect it to look like, you don't design your armor around your vision, speaking as a 3D modeller myself.

In the souls games most encounters have multiple opponents, and target locked camera works just fine. You only swing your weapon at one person at a time after all. If you have one of said games, you'll know that turning target lock off can be useful, but most of the time it is useful because you can always know that you are at least facing in the right direction, and you don't need to abstract in your head where your character will move.

In the souls games most encounters have opponents wearing multiple types of armor, and skimpy armor works just fine. That's because how protective it is doesn't depend on looks but on stats after all. If you have one of said games, you'll know that wearing armor that looks protective can be useful, but most of the time it is useful because you can always know that if you play a male character you won't need to see his ass.

I guarantee you the primary negative feedback everyone will have with this game is in the camera and the controls, just having a target lock system will allow people to play the way they want to play for the game they paid for. I think it should be included if anything for user-testing purposes, until then all the people who like this system are defending it and people like myself are contesting the rigidity from devs and the community.

I guarantee you the primary negative feedback everyone will have with this game is in the armor and how protective it looks. Just having some skimpy armor will allow people to play the way they want to play for the game they paid for. I think it should be included if anything for user-testing pruposes, until then all the people who like the current armors are defending them and people like myself are contesting the rigidity from the devs and the community.

There is a seeming unwillingness to test variants of the controls and camera system, or to let variants co-exist with what's there already, and I think that's a shame. Until it's been tried, it's just conjecture and assumption on the behalf of all of us (if it's been tried and failed already I take that back!)

There is a seeming unwillingness to test variants in the level of armor skimpiness, or to let variants co-exist with what's there already, and I think that's a shame. Until it's been tried, it's just conjecture and assumption on the behalf of all of us (if it's been tried and failed already I take that back!)

 

[Ben Curtis]

*Rolls sword arm "time for some troll slaying".

...

.

Wow, hostile! Basically all people who seem to comment on the controls are met with a similar response, 'you just don't get it, and you're dying and failing and you just need to get used to it, it's nothing like anything else..'.

I can play just fine. I know all the controls, have worked out a good few special moves and tactics for certain matchups and can complete the arena in novice and expert mode easily now since the patch where the step controls changed, and I can get far enough in the main game. I get it just fine, and can function, but i don't think the controls feel fluid or do the potential of the combat system justice.

You can't equate the game with anything isometric, because it's not isometric, it's a physics based combat game where precise swings make a difference and the controls are relative to your character, so camera movement is implied and is part of the game, without doubt. This contrasts against any isometric rpg like pillars. Sure it harks back to ultima online and games like that but its a different ballgame, the combat much more closely representing an action game than an rpg, which is why the camera is important!

Anyway about why i think target lock camera options would do it justice, for me...

You say yourself you have to actively think, to abstract the direction your character is moving in. That's not a good thing for a lot of people, tank controls are not natural, your brain doesn't think from the perspective of the character it thinks from the perspective of the camera.

You would lose no depth to the game with a target lock option at all, you'd still have to position the cursor correctly to block and fight and time your movements and that's where the fun part is. I think actually it would make it deeper because you could move your character relative to your opponent, not the camera, requiring no abstraction and focusing on the combat. The movement keys would be about moving the character, and the mouse about controlling your swings. Moving your mouse beyond the target lock zone would de-lock. Right now your character's orientation is linked to the mouse cursor as well as the swing path, which can often create situations where your character could swing and turn independently and get a good hit, but the controls don't allow for it, like when you've turned around, but your character wont turn and swing

Do you really think it would make it easier or debase the game somehow if you had the option to target lock? Even if it did, wouldn't it be a good thing for the game if it came with easy and hard controls, like many games do? Maybe you do, maybe you don't, I feel fairly sure it would make the game review and sell better though.

The magical thing about this game is the physics based combat, I think exploring alternate camera controls could be implemented and could remove the camera reorientation aspect of combat in a positive way, to allow focus on the fighting. No reason the space bar to reorientate you couldn't act as a press and hold target lock key either. Plenty of options, I'd just like to play with them!

This is a feedback forum. Don't hate on people who give feedback here. I have met some of the guys making this and had beers with them, backed the kickstarter, love the game and what they're doing and it's just a friendly suggestion based on my experience so far. I see there's an insider forum so maybe if i post suggestions there people aren't quite so aggressive.

Whatever happens whether control changes get implemented or not I'll keep playing and can't wait to see where it goes

 

[Ben Curtis]

The devs HAVE tested numerous variations while prototyping their current system. They also included a camera follow option when suggested by forum members, which later was removed due to causing more issues than it solved.

Fair enough, if target lock camera has been tried and failed I stand corrected, but the camera follow obviously wouldn't work if it was similar to holding down space at the moment, so i'm not surprised, and camera relative controls would make the combat 8-directional, also bad.

 

[Cpt Dave]

Users\<username>\AppData\Roaming\Exanima\Exanima.cfg
CamFollow = 1

It works fairly well against a single opponent. But if you ever come across two opponents attacking you from different sides, you will get completely wrecked.

What was before a straight line, now becomes much more complicated.
Let's say you want to move your cursor to block an attack from an enemy on your left. But when you start moving your cursor to the left, the camera starts rotating. Suddenly the point you wanted to move your cursor is in a different position on your display. These things happen very fast, precision is important when blocking, and it's hard to correct your aiming with a rotating camera.

And it's even harder if you have to alternate between blocking attacks from different angles.

I understand that the main problem is that for some people it's hard to process movement when the camera is not behind the back of the character. But the solution is not putting yourself into an aerotrim.

You can just use the 'space' button to center the view behind the characters back. Things are much easier with a stationary camera. And if you are getting out of your comfort zone and have to rotate the camera, just look at the enemy and press space again. (It's very important that you don't hold space down while attacking!) This way you can always see your character from behind, and you don't have to deal with the camera flailing around when you are blocking/attacking.

 

[nrage]

You would lose no depth to the game with a target lock option at all, you'd still have to position the cursor correctly to block and fight and time your movements and that's where the fun part is. I think actually it would make it deeper because you could move your character relative to your opponent, not the camera, requiring no abstraction and focusing on the combat. The movement keys would be about moving the character, and the mouse about controlling your swings. Moving your mouse beyond the target lock zone would de-lock. Right now your character's orientation is linked to the mouse cursor as well as the swing path, which can often create situations where your character could swing and turn independently and get a good hit, but the controls don't allow for it, like when you've turned around, but your character wont turn and swing

You do lose something. If WASD move relative to the camera, and the camera is locked to the opponent, then you are restricted to just 4 cardinal directions. You can move W directly towards them, S directly away, A at 90 degrees left, D at 90 degrees right.

With the current system, moving the mouse cursor 12 degrees to the right of them then pressing A moves your character left but also at 12 degrees (slightly) towards them. This fine control is the whole point of the current control system, you literally have 360 degrees of freedom (within the constraints of the momentum/position of your character at the time).

Also, the point Cpt Dave raises about how your cursor would be chasing the camera around as it rotated "unexpectedly" is a real problem, you would lose the precision required to effectively block etc.

 

[ZaratanCho]

Well, when fighting one enemy are you not basically locked onto your opponent by having the cursor on him(and have the freedom to change anytime)? I think having a specific lock will only make it harder. When fighting multiple opponents it will most likely kill you as well.

The orientation needs to be to the cursor in order to swing, i think with any target lock it will just become more complicated and difficult(esp since things become kind of separated). Without really having that much benefit in 1vs1 fights where it may be used. I dunno it's an interesting idea but(think i get it and see the appeal ;d).. don't think it will work well in practice. Maybe i don't get it fully. ;d