Inventory handling

[Cooper Holt]

Many replies. Thank you.

To give some arguments against certain points:

Realism:
It's a trade off. Realistic features can be really cool, but it also can turn games into tedious work.

Relevance of items:
The funny thing here is, the relevance of every item is influenced by the inventory space that is available. (Of course it is also influenced by other determinants.)
What about that spare equipment you might want to use? Some extra Arrows? Some herbs? Maybe Ore? Some choices are obvious while other choices make you waste a lot of time sorting through all that stuff. Now if you suddenly have twice as much room, more items would be relevant. If you had unlimited room, all of them would be relevant and saves a lot of time.

Immersion:
Did any of you ever play a game of the Gothic series or Risen? They have unlimited inventory. To many people those games are the most immersive RPGs. Personally I never felt any interruption in my immersion in them. Actually thanks to that the gameplay felt so very smooth like nowhere else. Honestly I can't remember any kind of other RPG with a limited inventory space, that didn't turn into a tedious game of "find the most useless stuff and get rid of it".(Baldurs Gate? Yeah annoying. Wizardry? not too many items but still annoying. Diablo or any other ARPG? Don't even start. MMORPGs? Jesus Christ. They even sell you bagspace these days.)

Also... you are raiding the evil Lords dungeon to save the world from being destroyed... every 30 minutes you take a break and run back to some merchant to sell all the stuff you gathered on your way. Some Immersion you got there.



There is always a possibility of compromising. If there is limited inventory space, then there should be other ways to transport more, like a mule.
It also depends on the relations between inventory space and amount and value of items you can find and various other things like the value of items. As I see it, you will always run into some kind of imbalance between the value of money, the value of items, the value of inventory space or game difficulty.


In the end I just hope, that the devs will read this thread and think about those possibilities. I very much like all the plans for this game so far, except for the probably limited inventory space.

I think that there should be limited inventory space. It's supposed to be immersive and realistic. However, pack mules and draft horses could also be possible.
Let's say you have two mules to carry your stuff and one horse to ride. If you have all of these animals, you cannot simply hope to protect all of them from the dangers of the world, so I'd think you would buy a partner. He would either walk along side the mules, or, perhaps, ride one.
Just a thought.

 

[Mimel]

I think that there should be limited inventory space. It's supposed to be immersive and realistic. However, pack mules and draft horses could also be possible.
Let's say you have two mules to carry your stuff and one horse to ride. If you have all of these animals, you cannot simply hope to protect all of them from the dangers of the world, so I'd think you would buy a partner. He would either walk along side the mules, or, perhaps, ride one.
Just a thought.

I agree Cooper. My vote is for limited space. Unlimited just doesn't match the whole idea of a realistic, physics-based world. If you want the unrealistic idea of carrying everything you find, you have many other games to choose from already. We can just try to use what's realistically available, like the examples that have been said: mules, parties, NPCs servants or hirelings, magic, etc.

I don't want another world that is just a constant treasure hunt for no reason. I funded this project for the philosophy of the devs, an engaging, physical world where my decisions and the actions of the inhabitants affect each other and create the story together. That makes it unique for each player. How incredible would that be?

 

[Cepheiden]

I can see everyone making strong points for limited space. I personally still have doubts just how doable the idea of "everything physically present" is.

Ultimately it all comes down to the implementation of their inventory system. If it fits the idea, it would be most innovative, like the rest of the game.

 

[Venom]

Tell us, Madoc. Details on inventory!

 

[walltar]

I think i didnt post it in this thread .... Pack lamas! We need them!

Also what Venom said.

 

[Madoc]

Alright, alright.

What we're going with so far ins't set in stone and we're quite interested in peoples' opinions.

Really we're almost copying the Ultima games here. We have a "paperdoll" (it's 3D and you can rotate it like you saw in the video) where you equip items. The space below is again Ultima style, there are no slots and you can just drop items wherever you like. The bar at the bottom would be for very small items. We'd just have an encumberance unit (not necessarily weight), you can have bags in your inventory but they only help in arranging your stuff, they don't increase your carry capacity.

Realism is especially something we're not sure about. We've talked about fully realistic inventory where you might have to drag bags of loot around but while that sounds kind of cool it also sounds kind of tedious. We think you should probably be able to find a suit of armour and take it with you without it becoming a huge endeavour.

There is one more important thing here: Displacement thaumaturgy and "Open Void". We thought this could be a pretty basic displacement power eventually accessible to any thaumaturge. We're also considering game modes where you're not a thaumaturge however and then there's the whole time you play before you have access to this power.

So again it's the question of realism vs fun. I think a very realistic inventory would be too limiting but there are many things inbetween. This seems like one of those things worthy of a poll.

 

[Venom]

Alright, alright.

What we're going with so far ins't set in stone and we're quite interested in peoples' opinions.

Really we're almost copying the Ultima games here. We have a "paperdoll" (it's 3D and you can rotate it like you saw in the video) where you equip items. The space below is again Ultima style, there are no slots and you can just drop items wherever you like. The bar at the bottom would be for very small items. We'd just have an encumberance unit (not necessarily weight), you can have bags in your inventory but they only help in arranging your stuff, they don't increase your carry capacity.

Realism is especially something we're not sure about. We've talked about fully realistic inventory where you might have to drag bags of loot around but while that sounds kind of cool it also sounds kind of tedious. We think you should probably be able to find a suit of armour and take it with you without it becoming a huge endeavour.

There is one more important thing here: Displacement thaumaturgy and "Open Void". We thought this could be a pretty basic displacement power eventually accessible to any thaumaturge. We're also considering game modes where you're not a thaumaturge however and then there's the whole time you play before you have access to this power.

So again it's the question of realism vs fun. I think a very realistic inventory would be too limiting but there are many things inbetween. This seems like one of those things worthy of a poll.

I LIKE IT! The fact that you want opinions, I mean. I personally prefer a realistic approach with some use of infinite capacity. I'll explain myself:

What I'd like to see is that weapons HAVE to be carried physically at all times, be it by hand, strapped to the back, in a sheath or whatever other way you can find to store weapons physically. You can only have one piece of armor at a time and I recommend that getting new armor doesn't happen often. New armor would have to be instantly equipped OR dragged (single piece of armor at a time) OR carried in a bag (adds weight depending on the armor, but the bag could be like a huge old-looking satchel instead of a bag that you have to carry with both hands) OR dragging the corpse around to a safe area to then switch your armor onto it (LOADS of weight added and only one-handed attacks can be done in this state). Where does the infinite capacity come in? Small items such as scrolls, potions, runes (if any), food (if any), darts and arrows, etc.

The inventory page would be divided into two sections:

• Limited Space Inventory
• Infinite Space Inventory

The Limited Space Inventory would appear at the bottom left of the inventory page and would be bigger than the Infinite Space Inventory because of the difference in size of items. The limit to this inventory would be measured in item capacity rather than weight because weight could make our wishes impossible when picking what character we want to be. Maybe someone wants to be a brute with Chaotic Heavy-as-hell Armor set and the legendary Mother-of-God-this-is-a-huge-mace Mace and would be impossible to wear with a weight limit. Surely the player would be at a disadvantage when fighting, but he'd learn and gain the skill to use his armor and weapon to perfection.

Later on the "Open Void" ability could be used to make both inventories infinite. What do you guys think?

 

[walltar]

For me i would like to see rather small and realistic inventory. So player can't take everything he founds. This is because i think there needs to be better pricing system than in most games where you sell 20swords for 20gp each and worst sword you can buy is about 400gp. Then everything you see is garbage only good to sell.

Second thing i would love to see is that dungeon rewards should not be normal equipment that you just sell in next town. I think there should be special NPC that would give you far better price for "unusual" items. This mean that you can't just sell epic sword of fiery death to closest smith ... but that item is special even in world.

Last thing ... if there will be horses there must be saddle bags and maybe visible eqipment space on horse. And when you are doing horses why not to make pack animals? You can have them tied to your horse and they would follow you. They could even carry camping suplies ... so you can build camp and use it as base where you can store your loot before going back to town.

And for thaumaturgic abilities ... i personaly would be using thaumaturgy as little as possible. I don't like playing casters i rather kill my enemies with cold steel.

 

[thomas gomez]

Hi, I am also very interested in mules, I think it's a good compromise between fun, realism and offer something to think about roleplay and strategy combat gameplay wise, I didn't explore all the gameplay related threads on this forum, so I don't know if you can own a place, but anyway my idea would include a servant and thaumaturgy.

So I don't know if it could be possible to have a telekinetic link between the player and some significantly faster characters that usually stays in the city and that, on a "telekinetic call", could go to an item that you're carrying or that you've left in a secure place and deliver it to someone or in a chest at your place, I've played X3 for quite a long time, and i've really enjoyed the fact that you could contact any of your ship to do so AND ALSO the fact that it's very risky, because your courier could be ambushed and die.

My point is that it could make "go get this" quests less annoying, while conserving a reallistic carrying aspect and without forcing you to return to the quest giver because you don't have enough space to go and get something else. Also roleplay wise it would create emphasis on the courier character because they would be expansive to hire (depending on their speed and agility), and if he die, the telekinetic link would broke and would force you to retrieve the item he was carrying, with only a more or less vague indication of where he might be (depending of the distance).

The way I see it would allow things like timed quests, like : the daughter of someone is ill and needs a cure that is kept in a dangerous forest for example, so you go there (maybe with your courier already Edit : saving time and allowing non thaumaturge character to use it) kill whatever bars your way and then give the plant to your brave and swift assistant hoping for the best, letting you either trust your guy and explore the forest deeper, or consciously following his tracks in case something unexpected happens to him (depending the beauty of the girl of course ).

I just realize that all of this could be useless if horses are implemented... but you know courier could be way faster horse riders than fully armored knights player. I don't know at least it could be another way to solve quests.

 

[Venom]

I just realize that all of this could be useless if horses are implemented... but you know courier could be way faster horse riders than fully armored knights player. I don't know at least it could be another way to solve quests.

I'm pretty sure everyone would prefer horses / armored horses instead of mules, but I like the idea of having an animal companion. Keep those ideas coming!

 

[BrecMadak]

Speaking about mules/mounts: I do not think we ever would need a mule or a mount considering relatively smaller world we shall live in SG. Implementing conscientiously a mule or a mount is already a painful work, and i personally wouldn't want devs to spend their precious times on those issues, there are already several humongous plans are in the works, let alone many are to be added to the list.

 

[fluffydino2000]

I like the idea of every item being essentially equipped to another item. For example, you'd probably wear a suit of armour, which is equipped to you. If you want a bag/quiver, that is equipped to the appropriate place upon the armour i.e. the back of the chest plate. If you want a weapon, you equip it to it's sheath, and the sheath to somewhere on your armour. Obviously, most items that you loot will be of value to you, and will go in a bag. Your probably carrying things like new pieces of armour/weaponry and potentially books etc. You have other things, though, that you need more readily. These could equip to your pocket, for example. It may be a side weapon or a bandage. You also have things to hide, you might hide these in your shoe, or inside your trouser leg. This would be another location to equip items. NPCs will use the same system, if you loot some boots, you may just find a ring inside.

To actually equip things, you would bring up the inventory screen. You would then select the item in the section beneath the charater and right click it. This would replace the character and become it's own paper doll. You would then drag items onto it and it would attach on the slot closest to where you release the click. To unequip an item from another, you'd simply drag it back into the slot-less section beneath. Obviously, items are equipped to the character in the same way, you just wouldn't need to select the item you were equipping things too.

Bags would have special and varied compartments and things could only equip to certain places if they had the right attachment mechanism (straps)/fitted the available attachment mechanism (belt pouch) and were of an appropriate size. All containers would fill, so the size of your items will need to decrease as the container gets fuller.

 

[Verva]

[Reply #46]

I don't quite understand what you mean by a paper doll. Are you going to have to drag and drop items onto the character in predefined slots?

Here's the ideas I have for inventory:

There would be "Highlight" zones where you can place certain objects. For instance, weapons (if large) can be sheathed on the belt, on the back, placed in the hand, or perhaps (if small) placed in a backpack, satchel, or sheathed along the leg, upper arm, or in the boot. All these areas would be highlighted upon choosing to lick up an object, and you simply choose which area to place it.

You could have certain backpacks, satchels, and clothing that posess different areas for storing things. Pockets, pouches, clips, even belts on them to attach daggers or other things. Wearing full plate armour will inhibit the amount you can store because there would be few areas to put things, but if you wore leather chaps and a body peice, along with a pocketed sash, you could clip more things on, and hold on to more loot.

However, if you wanted to take a helm back with you, and you're already wearing one, you could replace the one you have, or sling it over your back or give it to a companion. Large objects would be hard to take with you, but they could be strapped to your back if needed, obviously sacraficing some mobility depending on weight.

Little things like coins, gems, rings, scrolls, could be kept in the grid-inventory that's in Madocks picture, and lots of them can be stored, but not infinitely.

That's my 2 cents, fell free to do with it what you will.

 

[calithlin]

Although Madoc's mentioned that horse physics will be difficult, I think they are making the attempt either way. If they do manage to get horse physics working I think they will want to get the most bang out of that investment: that makes stagecoaches, caravans, pack-mules, and player mounts more likely. I'd be happy to see all of those.

Regarding carrying capacity, I think a range I would prefer would be: capability to carry a full set of armor on your body, and one additional set in inventory.
It's not exactly realistic, and it will likely slow you down considerably, but I think that's a good tradeoff of realism vs utility. Capability of bringing back a set of armor looted from an opponent to sell/give to someone else. Having a large sack to represent this or backpack would be great but not sure how feasible. Other items would add to this encumbrance, like books lanterns, etc, but I would prefer if things with miniscule weight did not contribute to encumbrance (like rings, arrows, small bottles and the like) as in Fallout: New Vegas.

 

[Vincent101]

In a realistic sense, you probably wouldn't pick up everything you came across. You definitely wouldn't be lugging around spare armour, maybe a 'back-up' weapon or so, some scrolls or a journal or something and some lotions and potions and money.

If you think about it, you'd be going back home after each event and getting one more potion, repairing your armour, etc. etc.


A brilliant idea is the 'sack' style backpack mentioned in this thread. Even a simple calculation would be easy enough; Max sack size is x, each item size is y, the bag "inflates" and is weighted down by each item and rag dolls around on your back. During combat, to reduce the weight of the bag, you can drop it. Brilliant.

 

[Vincent101]

Something we also need to consider is that if you're wearing, say, full plate, you can't exactly *reach* many things. If you were wearing full plate, there's no way you'd want to be carrying around another set of plate- you'd be too tired to fight- and you can only hang on to a handful of items because you only have so many plates to hang or store these items. Consider the weight of all items.

 

[scurra]

While realism is important how do you balance that with the economics of the world? All the actions of the player must have an average pay out based on the time it takes to complete gold giving activities in real life time.(does anyone want to spend an hour real time but barely making any gold? the whole point of adventuring is to be a lucrative way to gain money and power for the player.) If this held up with a completely real inventory then a suit of armor would have to have an astronomical value to make up for the effort. Also, if even basic heavy armor is super expensive then would not most of your enemies be wearing leather jerkin and such? In that case as soon as you got plate you would have a huge advantage over your opponent. As we have mentioned before I think a mount with inventory would be the good middle ground until the void skill was learned. Heck if you wanted to be realistic you could go with the wagon idea with followers who you could command to bring loot back to the wagon as you blaze trails through the wilds(I think a guy who can raise himself from the dead could find a couple lackeys). Now about the whole selling a sword for 20g while buying one for 400. During the middle ages armor and weapons were expensive because iron was a relativity scarce resource. So, only the extremely wealthy could afford it. Decent weapons and armor were actually designed around a person's stature and strength not to mention the purity of the iron dictating its quality. This means that if you raided a nobleman's armor you would most likely not be able to comfortably use it. So, when you sell armor to a foundry or merchant he is most likely going to sell it as scrap iron to a smith to be made into new items. So, if the yearly income of a successful farmer was 100 silver then an decent quality iron axe might cost 50 silver hence why you only get 40 silver(even a single iron tool could exponentially increase your farms productivity). While a set of armor would be 100 silver for the high quality iron and 200 silver for the skilled craftsman to refine the iron and then make the item for you. That is why games sometimes add the quality description of excellent(the material quality was excellent) steel sword or balanced excellent(the quality and craftsmanship was excellent) steel sword.

 

[scurra]

Actually, After thinking about it for a while it would be pretty cool to be able to gift found gear to a town or group which would not only make them better equipped but also in your debt. So, while you could sell it would be far more prudent to help outfit the city guard in case you ever need them to turn a blind eye to something. If there is going to be a real time economy this could also be used to say increase a farmer's crop yield by giving him tools.

 

[TheScythian]

(does anyone want to spend an hour real time but barely making any gold? the whole point of adventuring is to be a lucrative way to gain money and power for the player.)

I don't think that's true at all, at least not for Sui Generis. Adventure will be for adventure's sake, rather than just a means of filling your pockets with an unusable amount of gold. I think the key advantage of a finite inventory system is that it makes every item you find inherently more meaningful. It won't be a case of "I can carry 10 swords so I'll sell 9 and keep the best one" but instead you only pick up items that will be of some use to you (or someone you wish to help). That's not to say there shouldn't be a buying/selling mechanic, only that it shouldn't be the core element in the game. After all the idea is to be an adventurer, not a scrap merchant (unless that's who you want to RP ). Desirable items should be rare and meaningful so it feels like a genuine reward when you find that perfect sword.

 

[walltar]

(does anyone want to spend an hour real time but barely making any gold? the whole point of adventuring is to be a lucrative way to gain money and power for the player.)

Money have nothing to do with used inventory system ... you just have to tweak pricing of items. Instead you carry 10swords for price od 10GP you would find 1sword for price of 100GP. I hate games which lets you carry everything but when you come acros vendor you have to sell about 20swords to buy cheapest from him. You are supplying steady stream of weapons to him and when you sell them they disapear and are changed to money (by magic i presume) Vendor is still poor fella in poor village but must have cellar full of glorious loot.

Also, if even basic heavy armor is super expensive then would not most of your enemies be wearing leather jerkin and such? In that case as soon as you got plate you would have a huge advantage over your opponent.

Well they should ... plate armour is prety expensive item. And when you wear it you are not in that much of a advantage ... Armour should not by only skinn on you with armor value. It would encumber you and slow you down, faster and more agile enemy could strike weak spots and kill you. If you take weapon like stileto you can strike ringmail in armpit or on the back of your legs. Plus if you are in plate you will be wearing heavy weapon which is slower but more powerful to compensate for your lost agility. Plate armour should not be endgame item ... it should be a choice. You get big armour bonusbut you loose things too.