Ranged Weapons?

[Empire²]

I've got some throwing knifes heavy ones are easier to use I have some nice 14 inch ones that must weigh about 1kg and they are pretty easy to hit a target up to about 10 -15m

My apologies, I meant their accuracy purely from a gameplay standpoint. Just being able to click and throw a knife randomly at an enemy doesn't seem very fun to me. I would much rather have a sub-body aiming system, where moving your cursor moves the "crosshair" around inside of the enemy's silhouette, allowing you to aim for different areas of the body. I also don't really know how determining the rotation would work. I mean, it'd be kind of lame to throw a knife to finish off an attacker, just to have it hit him with the pommel and just bounce off. I would hope the game automatically chooses a rotation speed that takes in mind both your and your assailant's directional velocity in relation to one another.

 

[Facekillz058]

I mean, it'd be kind of lame to throw a knife to finish off an attacker, just to have it hit him with the pommel and just bounce off. I would hope the game automatically chooses a rotation speed that takes in mind both your and your assailant's directional velocity in relation to one another.

This could be a factor decided by your throwing skill,

 

[Empire²]

This could be a factor decided by your throwing skill,

Indeed it could. But having to throw about 50 before being able to actually successfully strike an enemy is unnecessary to say the least. I'd rather have it so your range and your accuracy are affected by skill level. I understand I can't start the game off throwing knives just perfectly under the rim of enemies' headgear, but I would at least like to be able to hit a damn thing without looking like an absolute fool. It doesn't make sense to add an unnecessarily tough skill curve to something like throwing weapons, I honestly cannot possibly come up with a justification for that, from the standpoint of a player wanting to rely on the use of such weaponry from the very start, rather than 20 hours into their game.

 

[Rob]

Indeed it could. But having to throw about 50 before being able to actually successfully strike an enemy is unnecessary to say the least.

I guess you'd be able to successfully hit a good proportion of the time just by random (somewhere between 1/4 and 1/2 of the time?). Increasing your skill would increase your likelihood of being able to time it right, getting a higher hit rate.

Plus the actual angle at which the knife hit the target would determine its effectiveness. Hitting the target perfectly would be a bit like a critical hit... but determined by physics rather than by chance.

Also, there's probably no reason why the type of damage couldn't be determined by the angle of impact - high piercing damage if the throwing knife hits successfully; low slashing damage if the knife hits on its side; low bludgeon damage if the knife hits with the pommel... all sorts of possibilities!

 

[Lathspell]

how will retrieve system work? I mean it's ok to carry a bunch of throwing knives because maybe they're not THAT heavy, but what about axes and javelins? you can't carry 100 or more axes to throw...so you must use them and then being able to retreave them all

will be a pain if you run out of throwing stuff before you can kill your enemies...

anyway I was thinking that all that stuff can be easily solved making a skill to "cast" ranged weapons, like "morrowind's bound weapons"

and while you increase that skill being able to: increase time before expiration, create stuff with properties (fire, ice, poison, magical, piercing, bleeding, head chopping, homming and whatever you want), increase stock, reduce weight, increase damage, etc....that would be an interesting mix between a magical and ranged character...

I dont even know if ranged weapons are included in SG, but I was inspired...this thread remind me a lot of d2 and my throw barb...
anyway arrows are retrievable?

 

[666jet]

The hard part with knives is not the hitting but the hitting with the point and if it's at plate armor you've gota very big chance of it bouncing off and maybe even hitting you smaller the knife the more it will bounce

 

[Lathspell]

The hard part with knives is not the hitting but the hitting with the point and if it's at plate armor you've gota very big chance of it bouncing off and maybe even hitting you smaller the knife the more it will bounce

then Instead of a "Miss" hit like all weapons in all games, for throwing knives it should be a 0 damage hit, and as you increase your skills with the weapon you hit more accurately or in this case, you hit with the point of the knife more often...

and about the plate armor stuff if Im not wrong, baldur's gate 2 and all those have that armor system where some armor are good with some weapons and some weapons are better for some armors than others...it would be cool to see something similar in SG...

 

[Komuflage]

how will retrieve system work? I mean it's ok to carry a bunch of throwing knives because maybe they're not THAT heavy, but what about axes and javelins? you can't carry 100 or more axes to throw...so you must use them and then being able to retreave them all

will be a pain if you run out of throwing stuff before you can kill your enemies...

anyway I was thinking that all that stuff can be easily solved making a skill to "cast" ranged weapons, like "morrowind's bound weapons"

and while you increase that skill being able to: increase time before expiration, create stuff with properties (fire, ice, poison, magical, piercing, bleeding, head chopping, homming and whatever you want), increase stock, reduce weight, increase damage, etc....that would be an interesting mix between a magical and ranged character...

I dont even know if ranged weapons are included in SG, but I was inspired...this thread remind me a lot of d2 and my throw barb...
anyway arrows are retrievable?

Retrieve should work with the normal loot system, would it not?
If you throw 3 knives that all hit an enemy, those 3 knives will be in the loot window, once you loot him/her.

Javelins and axes should work like other weapons when it comes to how many you can carry. (knives as well for that matter) I wouldn't expect you to be able to carry more than a few javelins/axes.

I think throwing weapons shouldn't be a unique skill, rather you would use milestones in the "range weapons" skill category to increase you effectiveness with throwing weapons. Ofc just increasing the skill should give you benefits as; longer range, better hit chance (as in you more often hit with the right side of the weapon) and so on.

However I don't think it should increase the max stock, reduce weight or increase the damage. (not directly)
Max stock should be infinitive as long as you got the space in your inventory (so only a few really)
I don't think a skill should reduce the weight of a weapon/item, as that's just unrealistic.
Damage should be increased indirectly. (as you learn to throw the weapon more precisely, and with more force, you're damage will increase)

 

[Empire²]

Of course, when your range increases, it would mean your throws have gotten stronger, which would then mean that the closer enemies are (Up until a certain point) the more percent damage the weapons have.

Imagine a top-down view of your character and an enemy, as well as a multitude of rings surrounding your character. The rings closest to your character are 0% damage. When an enemy is within that range, your throws will either become pretty darn ineffective or the game will not allow you to throw in the first place. The next rings would start going up: 30%, 60%, 80%, 100%. After that, they will start going down again until they hit their range limit. As your skill with throwing weapons increases, not only will your range increase, but your "sweet spot" will grow too. that means both 80% damage areas will turn into 100% ones, meaning you will be just as effective when you throw too late or too soon. When your skill is at an end-game level, you will be able to throw pretty much anywhere within a large area with a damage rate of 80% to a full 100%.

That's just how I would imagine it, anyways. There are some good examples of games (M&B: Warband for one) where throwing weapons as well as ranged weapons in general will be just as effective when you're close enough to notice your enemies have hair growing out of their noses as you would when they come within your range, which makes no sense to me. Still, I'm no expert on the matter, and to get a good variety of weaponry, I'd say the weight and balance of throwing weapons are specific to their manner of throwing as well as a certain degree of historically accurate.

As far as throwing axes and javelins go, I would guess you have very few. Javelins tend to be stored in quivers (Depending on their size, of course) and you would probably not be able to carry more than 8 or 10 before the weight becomes an issue. Axes are a mystery to me. I don't think throwing axes were a weapon carried in great number, and more or less an unconventional ranged weapon to begin with. Throwing knives really depends. I wouldn't mind being able to throw a dagger anyways, but real throwing knives are different. Some are made to be incredibly lightweight, and as such not really made as lethal weapons, whereas others are the exact opposite. I would imagine a limit of 8 on lightweight knives, and a limit of 2 or 3 on heavy ones. This means you would have to pick your equipment carefully to make sure your character isn't too affected by how much weight he's carrying around. Picking a sword that is lighter but does less damage over one that is the other way around may prove very useful when you're planning on strapping a quiver of javelins on your back as well.

 

[Lathspell]

As far as throwing axes and javelins go, I would guess you have very few. Javelins tend to be stored in quivers (Depending on their size, of course) and you would probably not be able to carry more than 8 or 10 before the weight becomes an issue. Axes are a mystery to me. I don't think throwing axes were a weapon carried in great number, and more or less an unconventional ranged weapon to begin with. Throwing knives really depends. I wouldn't mind being able to throw a dagger anyways, but real throwing knives are different. Some are made to be incredibly lightweight, and as such not really made as lethal weapons, whereas others are the exact opposite. I would imagine a limit of 8 on lightweight knives, and a limit of 2 or 3 on heavy ones. This means you would have to pick your equipment carefully to make sure your character isn't too affected by how much weight he's carrying around. Picking a sword that is lighter but does less damage over one that is the other way around may prove very useful when you're planning on strapping a quiver of javelins on your back as well.

that's why i was thinking about "bound" weapons like bound bow in skyrim, where the bound weapon is like a "ghost" weapon, weightless so no quantities problem, but with a short time before expiration...with a short stock, throwing axes must be pretty effective, or you just will run out before you kill your enemy...maybe that's why there was no throwing axes in morrowind, but a lot of throwing knives, and japanese throwing weapons

 

[Empire²]

that's why i was thinking about "bound" weapons like bound bow in skyrim, where the bound weapon is like a "ghost" weapon, weightless so no quantities problem, but with a short time before expiration...with a short stock, throwing axes must be pretty effective, or you just will run out before you kill your enemy...maybe that's why there was no throwing axes in morrowind, but a lot of throwing knives, and japanese throwing weapons

It would really depend on where they intend to take thaumaturgy. If there are no other spells or powers that are solely for combat purposes (e.g. Skyrim's Fire and Frost Breath), it would be silly to have only one of those available. The idea is nice, but I think it's a bit too cheap. Kind of makes you wonder why you can't summon a gatling gun (Just over-exaggerating to make my point clear ).

 

[Komuflage]

It would really depend on where they intend to take thaumaturgy. If there are no other spells or powers that are solely for combat purposes (e.g. Skyrim's Fire and Frost Breath), it would be silly to have only one of those available. The idea is nice, but I think it's a bit too cheap. Kind of makes you wonder why you can't summon a gatling gun (Just over-exaggerating to make my point clear ).

Now I'm not going to say whatever I'm for or against this idea, however it wouldn't necessary be "cheap" as long as you can summon bigger weapons to, like longswords and shields.
Since maintaining these weapons would drain a lot of focus, and the weapons would deal magic damage, there would be some real pros and cons in using conjured weaponry.

Now the reason we can't summon a Medieval cannon (Gatlinggun) would simply be that item is to large and would drain more focus than we have.

 

[Empire²]

Now I'm not going to say whatever I'm for or against this idea, however it wouldn't necessary be "cheap" as long as you can summon bigger weapons to, like longswords and shields.
Since maintaining these weapons would drain a lot of focus, and the weapons would deal magic damage, there would be some real pros and cons in using conjured weaponry.

Now the reason we can't summon a Medieval cannon (Gatlinggun) would simply be that item is to large and would drain more focus than we have.

It's not really about the size of the weapon so much as it is about the implied "roof" of such a skill. Being able to summon weapons raises a lot of questions about the extent of the power to do so. When asking why a certain object cannot be summoned, a simple "Because we don't allow you to." is a bit too easy. I honestly cannot say whether, within the world of Sui Generis, thaumaturgy in the same form as the use of the player is an already established art. In both the ab- and presence of such pre-existing knowledge on the use of thaumaturgy, raising the question "Well, why can't I do X when I can do Y?" is extremely valid, and the way a dilemma like that is handled is unknown so far. Why can't the world's most powerful thaumaturge summon a battering ram, a rare mineral, a cannon or a clone of himself to make his powers even greater?

It all needs to be justified in some way, and while my examples are over-exaggerated (With good reason), the premise doesn't change a single bit from if I'd been talking about bar stools, wooden buckets or broomsticks. Can the game give you the ability to summon an axe, a sword or a bow without making you feel like there's a ton more uses for these summoning powers which you haven't been granted? Finding that balance is going to be particularly tough, and you'll never get everyone on your side with it.

Yes, the usefulness of bound weapons is very clear and straightforward, but how are you justifying that ability? If your character was, from a story perspective, unsure about these powers, about how they got them and just how far they reach, it'd make more sense. Besides, how can you think outside the box when your powers are unfathomable? However, this adds the complication of the powers that you do possess. Why would you understand how you can summon a bound weapon with these strange powers, while not having the slightest clue how to summon an object of what may be a way simpler nature? (e.g., a bucket). Just saying "Well, the ability to summon a bucket isn't that useful anyways." kind of skews the perception your character would have of their powers in a way that creates some sort of flawed image about the matter as a whole for the player as well as the character.

Again, I'll note I am not against bound weapons, I just want a solid reason in-game that says "Here's why you can't do X". Mine is not a concern about the weapons, but about the vagueness they would cause through implementation without embedment into the context of the game's world.

 

[Komuflage]

It's not really about the size of the weapon so much as it is about the implied "roof" of such a skill. Being able to summon weapons raises a lot of questions about the extent of the power to do so. When asking why a certain object cannot be summoned, a simple "Because we don't allow you to." is a bit too easy. I honestly cannot say whether, within the world of Sui Generis, thaumaturgy in the same form as the use of the player is an already established art. In both the ab- and presence of such pre-existing knowledge on the use of thaumaturgy, raising the question "Well, why can't I do X when I can do Y?" is extremely valid, and the way a dilemma like that is handled is unknown so far. Why can't the world's most powerful thaumaturge summon a battering ram, a rare mineral, a cannon or a clone of himself to make his powers even greater?

It all needs to be justified in some way, and while my examples are over-exaggerated (With good reason), the premise doesn't change a single bit from if I'd been talking about bar stools, wooden buckets or broomsticks. Can the game give you the ability to summon an axe, a sword or a bow without making you feel like there's a ton more uses for these summoning powers which you haven't been granted? Finding that balance is going to be particularly tough, and you'll never get everyone on your side with it.

Yes, the usefulness of bound weapons is very clear and straightforward, but how are you justifying that ability? If your character was, from a story perspective, unsure about these powers, about how they got them and just how far they reach, it'd make more sense. Besides, how can you think outside the box when your powers are unfathomable? However, this adds the complication of the powers that you do possess. Why would you understand how you can summon a bound weapon with these strange powers, while not having the slightest clue how to summon an object of what may be a way simpler nature? (e.g., a bucket). Just saying "Well, the ability to summon a bucket isn't that useful anyways." kind of skews the perception your character would have of their powers in a way that creates some sort of flawed image about the matter as a whole for the player as well as the character.

Again, I'll note I am not against bound weapons, I just want a solid reason in-game that says "Here's why you can't do X". Mine is not a concern about the weapons, but about the vagueness they would cause through implementation without embedment into the context of the game's world.

I see your point, and although it's valid, we simply can't give a real reasonable answer to that questions.

For instance, Why can you create a fireball, but not a waterball, or snowball, or dirtball and so on.
Now for this specific example, you could give the reason of that the character is a pyromancer.

Now we've seen that there will be a force-push power, now why can't i create a circular force push, or a small but strong push that acts as a bullet, why not two bullets, or five or one hundred.

Now the easiest answer to that is simply "because it require more focus than you can have/You don't have the mental strength to do it", even though it's simple, I still fell it's valid, just as why can I carry something that weights 10kg, but not 100kg, because I don't have the physical strength to do it.


Now for the reason why you cant conjure a stoll or a brom, I can't give a valid answer, but if we're going to ask those questions, then we're back at my earlier example, in which: why cant I create a waterball?

 

[Empire²]

Now the easiest answer to that is simply "because it require more focus than you can have/You don't have the mental strength to do it", even though it's simple, I still fell it's valid, just as why can I carry something that weights 10kg, but not 100kg, because I don't have the physical strength to do it.

I see what you mean, yet having that divide between the game not allowing you to do so and it telling you it's because it costs more focus than you have would ruin the immersion (Implying you possess that knowledge beforehand). It upsets me as much as seeing invisible walls do in what is supposed to be an Open-World game. Yes, it's a game and it needs limits, I think we both agree on that. But how you choose to enforce those limits is really what decides how "open" your game is and how creative people can get with it.

I tend to play games very tactically. Analysing an area full of enemies, judging distances to devise the perfect plan, checking for spots I could use to start a one man raid and ordering my items so everything goes as smoothly as planned. Yet, when I sneak closer and closer towards my vantage point, some white text pops up in the corner saying "You can't go there." Why? Because an evil spirit is keeping me from doing so? No, because the game is not as open as it seems. Many places don't have correct collision meshes, possibly to avoid any unnecessary pressure on the pc. Yet I can clearly see that if I hopped up on this rock onto that wall, I would have a perfect advantage over my adversaries.

What it comes down to is that, as a game developer, you cannot even begin to understand the amount of ideas people get when playing games. The more you make those ideas possible by removing static and bland barriers, the more people will remember that as "Only in Sui Generis". It may bring its fair share of problems, but the feeling you get when you pull off something incredible far outweighs those concerns.

Anyways, let's take it back to ranged weapons. I derailed this thread enough already (My apologies)!

 

[Tessaya]

Then what about a thaumaturgic device (which is static in the SG world) where you actually put the item you want to be able to summon ?
The player would not be the creator of the device and just be able to use it after gaining some knowlegde, and if we want to change what we can actually summon, we need to physically change what is inside the device beforehand.

What we summon could be either the item itself or some sort of image of it (I'd prefer it to be an image, as there would be much less to explain as to why you could bring it back to the device with your own power when you needed the device to bring it to you first).

Just an idea thrown there :3

 

[Marc]

Since there will be castles as seen in the pre-alpha gameplay video, what about having ballistae or catapults up on the walls? They might not see much use since i dont think sieges or large scale battles are a part of the game, but there could always be some scenarios where they could see some use..or maybe even used against the player if approaching a hostile castle

 

[skilzg haki]

It would be cool to see some lancers and have some fort cannons that can be used by both NPCs and the player. Also can they have ninja tools like ninja stars or any asian styled armor or is this world going to be the european midieval style only, because i definately would like to see some samurai armors and katanas or some turkish armor and so far all is european

 

[Fawz]

It would be cool to see some lancers and have some fort cannons that can be used by both NPCs and the player. Also can they have ninja tools like ninja stars or any asian styled armor or is this world going to be the european midieval style only, because i definately would like to see some samurai armors and katanas or some turkish armor and so far all is european

The game isn't historical and set in a specific time, but it is going for a European medieval feel. As such I highly doubt we'll see exotic things like Ninja Stars, Katanas or Japanese style armors. Not unless there was foreigners who traveled to the Island, which would probably make those types of items quite rare and unusual.

I would really like to see Lances/spears which should use a very similar gameplay style seen in the videos that had Halbert combat, but if you mean a Javelin that can be thrown that might be more complicated.

Things like Turkish or Tibetan swords would be really nice and might not offset the style the game is going for by too much.

 

[skilzg haki]

The game isn't historical and set in a specific time, but it is going for a European medieval feel. As such I highly doubt we'll see exotic things like Ninja Stars, Katanas or Japanese style armors. Not unless there was foreigners who traveled to the Island, which would probably make those types of items quite rare and unusual.

I would really like to see Lances/spears which should use a very similar gameplay style seen in the videos that had Halbert combat, but if you mean a Javelin that can be thrown that might be more complicated.

Things like Turkish or Tibetan swords would be really nice and might not offset the style the game is going for by too much.

Yeah i was hoping for some rare items of course, but at least they should be included. Although if they were part of the world it would make greater variety that will it make content more attractive but that is up to the developers to decide.