Simple combat tweaks

[Eralen]

So I realize there is absolutely no shortage of suggestions in the forums, but I just thought I'd throw my 2 cents in. First off I want to say what an awesome and unique game Exanima is, (and Sui Generis hopefully will be). I've logged about 100 hours into Exanima (mostly in Arena mode). I feel that I have a good grasp of the combat but I have a few suggestions to modify the handling of certain weapons/techniques.

I've noticed that the thrusting mechanic seems kind of weak, especially for daggers. I think you should be able to thrust rapidly with daggers (maybe limit it to 3 or 4 strikes in a row with a cool-down), since daggers are very small and light weapons, and that is more like how a dagger/knife would be used in real combat.

Spoiler

This would potentially make daggers a more viable weapon, since daggers really have no advantage over any other weapon at this point. The same thing could be done for spears, but spears are already quite powerful because of their reach, so maybe not for spears.

My other suggestion is for draw-cuts/push-cuts with swords. The execution of the draw cut could be similar to how you perform a L-R strike, but instead of going L-R, you move the mouse front to back, or back to front.

Spoiler

This could also be used with weapons like axes, so you could get your opponent off-balance, or even knock them down. I can't count the number of times I've ended up in a bind/clinch where I could have done a draw cut and potentially damaged my opponent. I've even managed to execute what looked like a draw cut but without doing any damage. I realize that swords cannot slice through even the most basic armor (like a gambeson), therefore this technique would only be effective against bare flesh or unarmored clothing. The chance of doing damage would be very small in the more advanced classes like expert, but could do a serious amount of damage in aspirant-adept classes.

Hypothetical situation:

Spoiler

You're fighting a moderately armored Adept opponent with a big shield (in other words, a pain in the ass). You are using a longsword. You manage a thrust that gets between them and their shield but misses their body. Draw cut is the perfect technique to use here, and would give us a good technique to use against shield users, since they usually have less protective armor due to the shield taking up more points.

I don't think these would take too much work to implement, but then again I'm not a game designer. So what do you guys think?

 

[Syllabear3]

Thrust is not weak, you need to make it powerful like any other attack (standing attack should be executed with more energy, right now seems like you want to pet your enemy).

Repeated stabings, nono, disbalanced.
You don't bring a dagger in a sword fight... unless you know what you are doing.
There is a mod who defeated a shield user with dagger, im not going to look for the vid.

And for the rest i have no idea what are you talking about.
You need to learn to handle shield users. They are a pain and i think they should be removed directly. It takes away what is funny from this game.

What i would love to see added is a kind of push back when weapons or bodies conect.
Like some people said in other thread: a pushing kick or a push with both hands. I really hate ai when they try to stick to you (i do it sometimes to avoid being hit).

 

[Eralen]

Thrust is not weak, you need to make it powerful like any other attack (standing attack should be executed with more energy, right now seems like you want to pet your enemy).
Repeated stabings, nono, disbalanced.
You don't bring a dagger in a sword fight... unless you know what you are doing.

I don't mean thrust in general, it can stay how it is now, I just mean the dagger. Imagine if you're going up against someone with a warhammer and you have a dagger. You can fight on the inside, getting up right next to them without getting hit, because their weapon is useless at dagger range. It would give the dagger a good advantage if you can pull it off. I can fight with daggers just fine, I sometimes do just for the added challenge, but it would be nice if daggers got a little something extra like speed because they're worse in every other way.

And for the rest i have no idea what are you talking about.
You need to learn to handle shield users. They are a pain and i think they should be removed directly. It takes away what is funny from this game.

I can deal with shield users just fine. They just take a little bit longer and a bit more of a challenge. I think shield users are perfect because fighting someone with a shield IRL would actually be a lot more difficult.

You mean draw-cut and push-cut? Imagine that you are slicing bread. You place the knife on it first, and then move it back and forward, that is what a draw cut is. When the blade is already on the opponent, then you slice. Its different from, for example, chopping up meat with a big cleaver.

 

[Eralen]

But watching that video, I realize I need to work on my thrust technique. When I try to stab, its very hit or miss, so I really should practice it.

 

[Tony]

Bare Mettle are considering adding intentional draw cuts (basically the ability to push/pull on your weapon while holding a modifier key). This would also be useful for things like hooking a weapon onto a body part/armor and pulling the opponent off balance, etc. It's already possible to do so but it would just make doing so a more reliable and useful tactic.

Some interesting vids relating to this topic:

At 2:20:

At 1:30:

 

[HopeDIV]

Changing thrusts to be more dependent on weight sounds kinda interesting. I think thats a decent idea worth exploring.
But also consider that small weapons can thrust when normal weapons cannot. Example:

As for draw-cuts and hooks. Those have been talked about and I would expect to hear more about them in the future. (I believe they were tested a bit)

 

[Eralen]

But also consider that small weapons can thrust when normal weapons cannot.

Thats exactly the sort of technique I'm talking about. So it seems that it is already possible, though I haven't managed to pull it off successfully. I always end up clumsily thrashing around in a half-clinch without managing to land a thrust ... I'll just have to practice.

 

[Eralen]

So I just played around with the daggers a bit more, and I sort of figured it out. You can actually strike pretty rapidly with them! If you land a thrust, the recovery is much quicker than if you miss. If your movement and accuracy is good, you can even "stun-lock" an enemy, as the subsequent thrusts can be thrown faster than they can recover... so i suppose that makes this thread pretty redundant lol

 

[MrApophos]

You need to learn to handle shield users. They are a pain and i think they should be removed directly.

*taking notes*

 

[Syllabear3]

Changing thrusts to be more dependent on weight sounds kinda interesting. I think thats a decent idea worth exploring.
But also consider that small weapons can thrust when normal weapons cannot. Example:

As for draw-cuts and hooks. Those have been talked about and I would expect to hear more about them in the future. (I believe they were tested a bit)

Its awful idea because you will stun lock your enemy. I dont really want op daggers, i already played l2.

Anyways, you could fast thrust with any weapon it doesnt really matter the size.

*taking notes*

*editing notes*

 

[Syllabear3]

I don't mean thrust in general, it can stay how it is now, I just mean the dagger. Imagine if you're going up against someone with a warhammer and you have a dagger. You can fight on the inside, getting up right next to them without getting hit, because their weapon is useless at dagger range. It would give the dagger a good advantage if you can pull it off. I can fight with daggers just fine, I sometimes do just for the added challenge, but it would be nice if daggers got a little something extra like speed because they're worse in every other way.

Thats when you need counter movements for weapons like hammers... you can already abuse certain mechanics like this

Just look how broken it is, imagine that you add your dagger ideas :/

I can deal with shield users just fine. They just take a little bit longer and a bit more of a challenge. I think shield users are perfect because fighting someone with a shield IRL would actually be a lot more difficult.

Not really, just annoying and not funny.

You mean draw-cut and push-cut? Imagine that you are slicing bread. You place the knife on it first, and then move it back and forward, that is what a draw cut is. When the blade is already on the opponent, then you slice. Its different from, for example, chopping up meat with a big cleaver.

I see ty.

I cant see an use for this because weapons dont stick in this game, be on meat, armor or another weapons.
--

Oh look you already can quickly stab

I didnt use dagger.
With practice u can stab even faster gg.

At this point i wouldnt be surprised if she stop selling me stuff and leaves :c

 

[Eralen]

Its awful idea because you will stun lock your enemy.

Its not an afwul idea because it takes a lot of skill and practice, and it doesn't work every time. Long weapons have the advantage at longer range and vice versa. Same with environment. A dagger will have a huge advantage in a tight corridor. Its up to each of you to take advantage of your weapon's strengths. If he fails to keep you away, he dies, its perfectly logical.

Anyway, you're completely missing the point dude. I could play the game if it only had R-L swings for example, but it wouldn't be as fun. Adding more variety of attacks is more fun and allows you to play with a variety of different styles and strategies. If you want to be super technical, you can use footwork, positioning, parrying, counter attacks, etc. Or if you want to just swing wildly with a club, you can do that too because you have a choice.

Oh look you already can quickly stab

Yes, I learned this thanks to a helpful post. I hadn't seen any videos/discussions about daggers so I didn't know about it before. I also learned a new technique which I can practice and now I can play the game longer without getting bored.

And shields aren't broken, they're extremely effective because that's how they're supposed to be. There's a reason why they have been used in battle for millennia since prehistoric times, and even to this day by police and SWAT, etc. No one's gonna hold your hand because you can't figure it out. I've beaten shield users before just by hitting them in the shield repeatedly and quickly, depleting their shield stamina and doing damage through the shield. There are just as many ways to defeat shields as anything else

 

[Syllabear3]

Its not an afwul idea because it takes a lot of skill and practice, and it doesn't work every time. Long weapons have the advantage at longer range and vice versa. Same with environment. A dagger will have a huge advantage in a tight corridor. Its up to each of you to take advantage of your weapon's strengths. If he fails to keep you away, he dies, its perfectly logical.

Anyway, you're completely missing the point dude. I could play the game if it only had R-L swings for example, but it wouldn't be as fun. Adding more variety of attacks is more fun and allows you to play with a variety of different styles and strategies. If you want to be super technical, you can use footwork, positioning, parrying, counter attacks, etc. Or if you want to just swing wildly with a club, you can do that too because you have a choice.

Its useless, im telling you.

I will tell you 2 interesting things:
One: you already can counter it with armor and blocking.
Two: it would be even more countered with the movement i want added (and others mentioned it), a push away or kick.

If there is a technic, it should be a way to counter it.

Dagger is useless, unless they add a stealth class in sui generis... even then you could only assault people without equipament or exposed parts...
Im tired of games that make daggers powerful when they are not, like "lineage 2", "tes" etc.
They were not meant to be used in weapon fights unless its another dagger.

Yes, I learned this thanks to a helpful post. I hadn't seen any videos/discussions about daggers so I didn't know about it before. I also learned a new technique which I can practice and now I can play the game longer without getting bored.

And shields aren't broken, they're extremely effective because that's how they're supposed to be. There's a reason why they have been used in battle for millennia since prehistoric times, and even to this day by police and SWAT, etc. No one's gonna hold your hand because you can't figure it out. I've beaten shield users before just by hitting them in the shield repeatedly and quickly, depleting their shield stamina and doing damage through the shield. There are just as many ways to defeat shields as anything else

I liked the part where you say that they are extremely effective and then you say that there are countless ways to defeat it.

 

[HopeDIV]

Its awful idea because you will stun lock your enemy. I dont really want op daggers, i already played l2.

Anyways, you could fast thrust with any weapon it doesnt really matter the size.


*editing notes*

If your looking for a inherently balanced system, I don't think your going to get it. Consider that daggers are pretty much countered by range and armor. Something tells me a mace could not thrust as fast as a short sword. Whether thats actual speed or simply clearance. Although they really are sharper than perhaps they should be.

Its also worth noting that the "stun lock" change be negated by better AI, the zombies do nothing but swing at you and move forward. And the current combat Ai isnt a whole ton better...

 

[Roryn]

Well the exanimates are naturally inept fighters. In life they weren't experienced fighters, anyway; in death they must be much worse. They're all decayed, for one.

 

[Eralen]

Basically what I'm saying is, the daggers already work like I was suggesting they should, I Just didn't know about it before I made this thread. True, the "stun-lock" really doesn't work past Novice level armor, and thats how it should be. Unless you can be extremely accurate (or lucky) and aim for gaps in armor, which is next to impossible in Exanima. And while its very effective on the undead in the dungeon, its also extremely risky, because getting that close to a zombie and missing a strike puts you in a very dangerous spot. Therefore I think its pretty well-balanced as it is. Still, different scenarios call for different techniques, and the daggers can be effective in the appropriate context.

I liked the part where you say that they are extremely effective and then you say that there are countless ways to defeat it.

I didn't say countless ways; there are consistent ways but they're more difficult than defeating someone without a shield. Thrusts and overheads are better against shields. 1: Hit their weapon arm with an overhead strike as they swing. 2: Aim for the legs with thrusts. 3: Swing at the legs while ducking. 4: simply out-time them with a counter-attack. 5: Circle around their unprotected side. 6: Repeated attacks to the shield with a heavy weapon. 7. Get close enough (with, perhaps some kind of short and light weapon) and fight inside the defensive range of their shield. There's a few of them, I'm sure there are more.